Property Law and the Stolen Sentence
A discussion between Kathy Acker and Denis Johnson
The diner was wrong for this. Every surface vinyl, the lighting designed to prevent lingering. Denis Johnson had ordered coffee twenty minutes ago and hadn’t touched it. Kathy Acker was tearing a sugar packet into strips and arranging them on the table in a pattern that might have been deliberate. I was trying to figure out where to sit — they’d taken a booth, and the booth only fit three if one person angled their knees sideways, which was me, which felt correct. The youngest person in the conversation should be the one with cramped legs.
“I want to talk about parking lots,” I said.
Johnson looked at the window. Outside: a parking lot. Sodium lights already on even though the sun hadn’t fully set. “Which one?”
“That’s the whole question, I think. The same event, or maybe not even an event — a woman, a car, some asphalt — told from angles that can’t be reconciled. Three voices. None of them reliable.”
Acker stopped tearing the sugar packet. “Why three?”
“Because two makes a dialectic. Two versions and the reader starts looking for the real one. Three and the whole idea of a real one starts to dissolve.”
“Four,” Acker said. “You need four. Or seven. Three is still a shape people trust. Trinity. Beginning-middle-end. Three makes people feel safe.”
“Four voices in three thousand words is a crowd scene,” Johnson said, still looking at the window. His voice had that quality — flat, like a pond you can’t see the bottom of. “Three is already a crowd. The question isn’t how many voices. The question is whether any of them are actually talking about the same parking lot.”
I started to say something about unreliable narration and Acker cut me off, which I’d been warned she would do. “Don’t use that phrase. Unreliable narrator. It’s a creative writing workshop term for something that’s just — ” She waved a hand. “Every narrator is unreliable. Every sentence is a lie. The question is what kind of liar you’re dealing with.”
“She’s right about that,” Johnson said. “But for the wrong reason.”
Acker’s eyes went sharp. “Tell me the right reason.”
“You think all narration is lies because you think language is a power structure. I think all narration is lies because people are confused. There’s a difference. Your liar knows she’s lying. Mine doesn’t.”
Silence. The waitress came by and poured more coffee into Johnson’s untouched cup. Acker watched her leave.
“Both,” I said. “What if we have both? A narrator who knows she’s rewriting herself — who’s conscious of the fabrication, who says I’m putting her there now because I need a witness — and a narrator who genuinely can’t tell what happened because the memory is damaged. And then a third voice, something else entirely. A text. A stolen text.”
Acker leaned forward. “Now you’re talking. The stolen text.”
“She finds a book in a common room — ”
“No. She steals a book. There’s a difference. Finding is passive. Stealing is a relationship.”
“She doesn’t exactly steal it. It’s in a detox unit, she — ”
“If she takes it, she steals it. If she copies sentences from it into her notebook without quotation marks, she steals it. The whole question of literary property is — ” Acker paused, and for a moment she looked like someone deciding whether to open a door or kick it in. “I wrote a whole novel once by rewriting other people’s novels. Don Quixote, except Don Quixote is a woman and she’s having an abortion and it’s 1980s New York. You take the sentence, you change the name, you change the gender, you shift one word, and now it’s yours. Because ownership of language is a fiction. Copyright is a fiction. The only real thing is the body that wrote it and the body that reads it.”
Johnson turned away from the window. “That’s theory. I want to talk about the woman.”
“Which woman?”
“The one in the car. The one who can’t let go of the steering wheel. I want to know why she can’t let go.”
“Amphetamines,” I said. “She’s in withdrawal, she’s been — ”
“No. I mean the real reason. The pharmacological reason is just the door. Why is she in the parking lot at 2:47 AM? What was she driving toward or away from?”
“Away from,” Acker said. “Always away from. Nobody drives toward a Rite Aid at 2:47 in the morning.”
“I did,” Johnson said. And the way he said it closed a small door in the conversation. We sat with it. The coffee got colder. Outside, a car pulled into the lot and parked under one of the sodium lights, and I watched the driver sit there for a moment before getting out. The delay. That delay between arriving and leaving the vehicle. Johnson was watching it too.
“That,” he said, pointing with his chin. “That moment. That’s what the whole story is about. The not-getting-out.”
“For you,” Acker said. “For me the whole story is about the notebook.”
“Tell me about the notebook,” I said, grateful to be useful.
“It’s county-issued. The pen is county-issued. Her body is, at this point, county-issued.” Acker was pulling the sugar packet strips into smaller pieces now, a confetti she seemed unaware of making. “She’s writing in an object that belongs to the state and the writing is the only thing that’s hers and even the writing isn’t hers because she’s stealing from the book and the book isn’t hers and — do you see? Every layer of ownership is a lie. She owns nothing. Not the notebook, not the sentences, not her body. The only thing she owns is the act of writing, which is the act of stealing, which is the only authentic act left.”
“I don’t think she cares about authenticity,” Johnson said.
“What does she care about?”
“Being witnessed. She needs someone to see what happened to her. That’s why she invents the passenger. That’s why she needs the orderly to read the notebook. She doesn’t care who owns the words. She cares that someone receives them.”
This was the disagreement I’d been waiting for, and it was real — not a workshop exercise, not two positions arranged for pedagogical contrast. Acker thought the story was about the politics of language and the body. Johnson thought it was about the need for grace in its crudest form — being seen, being held in someone else’s attention for long enough to matter. And both of them were right in a way that made the other one more right, which is the worst kind of argument because nobody gets to win.
“What about the orderly?” I asked. “He’s got his own section. He’s not just a witness. He has — he was a paramedic. He has his own parking lot, his own woman in a car.”
“He’s the mirror,” Acker said.
“He’s the priest,” Johnson said.
They looked at each other across the table. The sugar confetti between them.
“He mops floors at 2 AM,” Johnson said. “He likes the weight of the mop handle. He can feel the hum of a fluorescent light in his back teeth. He used to be someone who touched people with precision and said you’re going to be okay without meaning it, and now he touches floors. That’s not a mirror. That’s a man who downgraded his contact with the world because the contact was killing him.”
“That’s a beautiful way to describe a janitor,” Acker said. “It’s also sentimental.”
“Is it sentimental if it’s true?”
“Nothing is true. We’ve established this.”
I jumped in before the argument closed: “What about his voice? His sections — they read differently. More observational. He notices things. The tile at 2 AM. The frequency of the fluorescent light. Her hands like starlings. He’s precise in a way she isn’t.”
“Because she’s writing to survive and he’s writing to understand,” Johnson said. “Those are different engines. She writes like someone bleeding. He writes like someone applying a tourniquet.”
Acker folded her arms. “I don’t buy the tourniquet. He’s not helping her. He never opens the door. He stands outside for eleven minutes and then walks away. That’s not care. That’s consumption.”
“He’s afraid,” I said.
“Of what?”
“Of reading his own parking lot in her notebook. Of recognizing it. He had a woman on Camelback Road too. She said I did this on purpose and he said you’re going to be okay and she said that’s not what I said. He’s been carrying that for years. If he reads the notebook and it’s the same woman — ”
“It can’t be the same woman,” Johnson said. “That would be a coincidence and coincidences are lazy.”
“It doesn’t have to be the same woman. It just has to feel like it could be. The could be is worse than the is.”
Johnson picked up his coffee, looked at it, put it back down. “Yes. That’s right. The could-be is worse.”
“And the mopping,” I said. “The mopping is like writing. Repetitive, physical, turning a surface into something that gives back light — ”
“Don’t,” Acker said. “Don’t make the metaphor that clean. The mopping is mopping. The writing is writing. If they rhyme, let the reader hear it. Don’t underline it.”
She was right. I wrote don’t underline on my napkin and circled it, which is a form of underlining, which she noticed, which made her almost smile.
“The body,” Acker said, after a silence long enough to feel like a reset. “She should describe her body. Not metaphorically. Pharmacologically. What the amphetamines did to her teeth, her skin, her ability to orgasm. The body as evidence. The body as the only document that doesn’t lie.”
“The body lies too,” Johnson said.
“Less than language.”
“The same amount. Just in a different register.”
“Fine. But the body’s lies are more interesting. Her dentist says significant erosion and she says significant erosion of what — not of enamel, of the person who used to floss. The person who used to show up. That’s not metaphor. That’s how damage actually works. You don’t lose your teeth. You lose the woman who took care of her teeth. The body’s still there. The inhabitant is gone.”
I was scribbling on the placemat now, which was laminated, which meant the pen skidded. Acker noticed and pushed her own napkin across the table.
“Here’s my problem with the orderly,” Acker said. “He’s too tender. He stands outside her door for eleven minutes. He times it. He wants to read what she’s written. This is surveillance dressed as care. This is the institution wearing a human face.”
“Or it’s a man who can’t stop being a paramedic,” Johnson said. “You stabilize the cervical spine. You apply pressure. You don’t let your hands shake. He learned a kind of attention in the ambulance and he can’t turn it off. It’s not surveillance. It’s the only form of love he has left.”
“Love is surveillance,” Acker said.
“Sometimes. Sometimes surveillance is love. The distinction doesn’t hold in a hospital at 3 AM.”
This was the point where I’d expected compromise — the place in most conversations where someone says well, I suppose we’re both right. Neither of them offered it. They sat with the disagreement like it was weather. I liked them for that.
“The stolen text,” I said. “The book she finds — the one with no cover, pages 1 through 30 missing. What is it?”
“It doesn’t matter,” Acker said.
“It matters a little,” Johnson said. “It matters that it’s broken. That you enter it mid-sentence. That the character’s name is close to hers but not the same.”
“Dahlia. She changes it to Dahl.”
“She changes it because quotation marks are a form of property law,” Acker said, and I couldn’t tell if she was quoting herself or the character or if the distinction mattered. “She takes the text into her body. She reads it until she’s inside it. That’s not metaphor either. That’s what reading does to you when you have nothing else. The book becomes more real than the room.”
“I was in a hospital once,” Johnson said. He said it the way he said I did earlier — closing a door by opening it a crack. “They had a Bible and a James Patterson and nothing else. I read the Bible because the Patterson was water-damaged and the Bible at least had sentences worth stealing. I copied Ecclesiastes into a notebook. Not because I believed it. Because the words were large enough to fill the room.”
Acker was quiet for a moment. “That’s good. Put that in the story.”
“It’s not mine to put.”
“Everything is yours to put. That’s the point. That’s what she does — she takes the book, she takes the orderly’s attention, she takes the Rite Aid parking lot and the strip mall on Indian School and she makes them all the same parking lot because the specificity of the location is less important than the quality of light.”
“Sodium lights,” Johnson said. “They turn everything amber. They turn everything into a memory before it’s finished happening. That’s a real thing. Those lights change the color of blood.”
“Those lights are disappearing,” Acker said. “They’re replacing them with LEDs everywhere. White light. Accurate light. It’s a loss. The sodium lights were liars and the lies were beautiful.”
We all sat with that for a moment. The parking lot outside was sodium-lit. One of the last ones, maybe. A moth was doing something complicated near the glass.
“The father,” I said carefully. “She starts to write about her father twice and crosses it out both times.”
“Keep the crossouts,” Acker said. “Keep the strikethroughs visible on the page. She writes my father put his hands on my and then a line through it. The reader sees it. The reader knows. But the story refuses to say it. That refusal is more violent than the saying would be.”
“Is that a formal choice or an ethical one?” I asked.
“Both. There’s no difference.”
Johnson shook his head slowly. “There’s a difference. The formal choice is: the crossout is more powerful than the sentence. The ethical choice is: you don’t have the right to tell her story if she crossed it out. Those are different claims.”
“She’s fictional,” I said.
They both looked at me. I regretted it immediately.
“She’s fictional,” I said again, quieter, mostly to the placemat.
“Nobody in a parking lot at 2:47 AM is fictional,” Johnson said.
Acker stood up. She was shorter than I expected, or the booth had made her seem taller, or I’d imagined her at a different height. She had the look of someone who’d gotten what she came for and staying longer would dilute it. “I need to walk,” she said. “The glass thing. The woman pressing her face to glass — pane, pain with an e on the end like a dress. That’s the stolen text’s best moment. Don’t cut it.”
She left through the front door and turned right and I watched her through the window until the sodium light swallowed her.
Johnson and I sat in the booth for another twenty minutes. He drank the cold coffee. I wrote on napkins. The waitress stopped offering refills. At one point he said, “The orderly should keep the notebook. That’s the ending. Not that he reads it. Not that he understands it. That he keeps it. Combination 12-34-08. He puts it in his locker. He doesn’t know what to do with it. That’s grace.”
“The not-knowing-what-to-do-with-it is grace?”
“Everything you hold without understanding is grace. That’s the only kind there is.”
I wanted to argue. I thought about Acker, who would have said that keeping the notebook was another act of possession, another man claiming ownership of a woman’s words, another locker with a combination, another locked container for a woman’s body. And she would have been right. And Johnson would have been right. And the story would have to live in the space where both of those things were true simultaneously and neither of them won.
“The versions,” I said. “At the end — the last version. She says nothing happened. She pulled into the lot. She turned off the engine. She sat there. No crash, no cart corral, no child, no passenger. Just a woman in a car who couldn’t make her hands let go of the wheel.”
Johnson looked at me for a long time. “That’s the truest version.”
“How do you know?”
“Because it’s the quietest. The other versions are performances. They’re her trying to make the thing dramatic enough to deserve a notebook. But the truth is just: a woman stopped. In a parking lot. And couldn’t start again. And called someone because her hands wouldn’t open.”
“Acker would say the quiet version is a performance too.”
“Acker isn’t here.”
The diner closed at ten. We left through the parking lot. The sodium lights made everything amber and I thought about the woman in the car and the man with the mop and the book with no cover and the strikethrough hiding her father and I knew the story would have to contain all of them without explaining any of them. Johnson walked to his car without saying goodbye. Not rude — just finished. The conversation had ended somewhere in the middle and we’d kept talking past it the way you do, the way everyone does, the way the fluorescent keeps humming after the light goes out.
I sat in my car for a while before starting it. The delay. That delay between arriving and leaving.