Gratitude and the Speculum

A discussion between Margaret Atwood and Kazuo Ishiguro


The room Margaret had chosen was a tearoom in a hotel that no longer took overnight guests. She’d been specific about this. “I want somewhere with cloth napkins and a sense of recent institutional failure,” she’d said over email, and when I arrived I understood: the Whitfield had the bones of grandeur — crown molding, bay windows overlooking a garden that someone had once been paid to maintain — but the wallpaper was lifting at the seams, and the radiator clanked arrhythmically, and the scones arrived under a glass dome with a hairline crack running across its surface. Perfect, in other words. A place where things were being kept up.

Kazuo was already seated when I got there. He had a pot of green tea and was studying the menu with the careful attention of someone who had no intention of ordering from it. He looked up when I sat down and said, “The jam is homemade. They’re quite proud of it.”

Margaret arrived seven minutes late, carrying a canvas tote bag printed with the words SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL SEED LIBRARY. She sat down, ordered black coffee, and said, without preamble: “So. We’re writing about forced reproduction.”

“We’re writing about a woman who remembers forced reproduction,” Kazuo said. “That’s different.”

Margaret looked at him. She had a way of looking at people that suggested she was deciding whether to file them under amusing or dangerous. “Is it?”

“I think it might be the whole story,” he said.

I should have spoken then. I had notes — careful notes about the thematic territory, about the way reproductive control functions as state power, about the domestic sphere as a site of political oppression. I had read extensively. I had prepared. But the two of them were already circling something, and the air between them had the quality of a conversation that was going to happen whether or not I participated, so I poured myself tea and listened.

“Here’s what I know about this kind of story,” Margaret said. “And I know because I’ve spent forty years fielding the same question from journalists: ‘Did you make it up?’ To which the answer is always no. Ceausescu’s Romania. The Magdalene laundries. The forced sterilization programs in North Carolina that continued into the 1970s. The Lebensborn. You don’t need to invent a system for controlling women’s bodies. You need to pick one and change the furniture.”

“I don’t disagree,” Kazuo said.

“But?”

He turned his teacup a quarter rotation on its saucer. “But the story that interests me isn’t the system. It’s the person inside the system who has decided, at some level, to find the system tolerable.”

“Decided,” Margaret repeated.

“Agreed, then. Consented. Accommodated.” He paused. “I don’t have the right word for it. The English language is quite poor when it comes to the states between resistance and collaboration. We have complicity, which carries judgment. We have submission, which carries violence. What I want is the word for what happens when a person adjusts to the intolerable so gradually that by the time they might object, objecting would require them to acknowledge that everything before the objection was — ”

“Was what?”

“Participation.”

Margaret was quiet for a moment. She picked up a scone, broke it in half, and examined its interior with the detachment of a geologist studying a core sample.

“All right,” she said. “I can work with that. But I need the system to be concrete. Not allegorical. Not a metaphor dressed up in a grey suit. I want the reader to know what this program does to these girls’ bodies, in specific medical detail, and I want the language the program uses to talk about it, and I want the gap between those two things to be the gap where the horror lives.”

“The language,” Kazuo said, and something in his face shifted — a recognition, a settling into familiar territory. “Yes. I’m very interested in institutional language. The vocabulary that’s designed to make the unbearable sound administrative.”

“Contributions,” I said. It was the first word I’d spoken since sitting down, and they both looked at me as though they’d forgotten I was there. “The children could be called Contributions. Not babies. Not even children. The word for what the women produce is the same word you’d use for a pension payment or a donation to the arts.”

Margaret’s mouth did something that was almost a smile. “Contributions. That’s quite good. That’s got the right bureaucratic chill.”

“And the women themselves,” Kazuo said. “They should have a title. Not a name. Something that sounds almost honoring.”

“Keepers,” I said, because I’d been thinking about it, about the word keep and all its valences — to keep something going, to keep something safe, to keep someone in a place, to be kept.

“Keepers,” Margaret repeated, testing it. “That works on three levels, which is two more than you need. Fine. Keepers.”

She spread jam on her scone. The jam was, indeed, homemade. She did not comment on its quality.

“Now,” she said. “The narrator. Who is she?”

“She’s someone who went through the program,” Kazuo said. “And she’s telling us about it afterward. Perhaps long afterward. And the way she tells it is — this matters enormously — the way she tells it is with fondness.”

I felt something catch in my chest. “Fondness?”

“Not false fondness. Not performed fondness. Genuine warmth for the people and the place that were the instruments of her subjugation. She remembers the lake being beautiful. She remembers the food being better than expected. She remembers an instructor who always warned her before doing something that would hurt, and she is grateful for this, sincerely grateful, and the gratitude is the most devastating thing in the story.”

Margaret set down her knife. “You’re describing someone with no access to her own anger.”

“I’m describing someone who had access to her anger and spent years learning to lock the door.”

“Or someone the system trained to believe the door was a wall,” Margaret said. “That there was no anger behind it. That the room simply didn’t exist.”

They looked at each other. I could feel the disagreement hardening between them — not hostile, but structural, load-bearing. It was a disagreement about what characters know.

“I think she knows,” Kazuo said. “At some level. She has to know. Otherwise the story is about a victim, and victims are — I don’t mean to be callous — victims are less interesting than participants. I want her to be a participant. I want the reader to understand that at every point she could have — ”

“Could have what?” Margaret’s voice was sharp. “Resisted? Refused? Climbed out a window? She’s a fifteen-year-old girl inside a state apparatus. What exactly were her options?”

“She could have not put the book in the donations bin.”

The room went quiet. The radiator clanked. Outside, in the ruined garden, a blackbird was doing something complicated in a hedge.

“What book?” I asked.

Kazuo looked at his tea. “I don’t know yet. A book her friend leaves behind. A forbidden book. Something the friend intended as — not quite a message. A seed, perhaps. Something she could have kept. And she doesn’t keep it. She puts it away. That’s her moment. Not a grand refusal. Not a heroic stand. A small, private failure of courage that she will think about for the rest of her life.”

“And she’ll think about it calmly,” Margaret said, and now her voice had changed — the sharpness was gone, replaced by something harder to name. Respect, maybe. Or recognition. “She’ll narrate that moment with the same measured composure she uses for everything else, and the composure will be the thing that breaks the reader’s heart. Because you’ll realize that the composure isn’t armor. It’s scar tissue.”

“Yes,” Kazuo said. “Exactly that.”

I wrote it down. I wrote down scar tissue and gratitude as horror and the book in the donations bin, and then I said something that I’m not sure was wise but that felt necessary: “What about the friend? The one who leaves the book. Does she resist?”

“She leaves,” Kazuo said. “One morning she’s simply not there. And the narrator is told she’s been transferred, and the narrator believes this, or makes herself believe it, which — ”

“Which at this institution amounts to the same thing,” Margaret finished. “Yes. I like that. The equation between self-deception and compliance. They should have a whole grammar of not-knowing at this school. A curriculum of avoidance.”

“Not avoidance,” Kazuo said. “That implies awareness of what’s being avoided. I mean something deeper. A way of thinking that routes around certain questions the way water routes around a stone. You don’t decide not to think about it. You simply never arrive at the thought.”

“I disagree,” Margaret said. “I think she arrives at the thought repeatedly. She just doesn’t stay.”

This was the tension — I could see it clearly now, the fault line that would run through the whole piece. Kazuo wanted the narrator’s blindness to be structural, almost neurological: a mind shaped by its environment to be incapable of certain recognitions. Margaret wanted the blindness to be a choice, made and remade every day, a daily act of cowardice that the narrator was both aware of and unable to stop.

I said, “Can it be both?”

They both turned to me.

“Can she be someone whose environment has made it genuinely difficult to think certain thoughts, and also someone who, in the rare moments when the thoughts arrive anyway, chooses not to hold them? Not because she’s cowardly but because holding them would require dismantling everything — the schedule, the kindness, the way the mist sits on the lake in the morning — and she can’t dismantle it because it’s the only world she has?”

Margaret picked up her coffee, which had gone cold. She drank it anyway.

“The kindness is important,” she said, not responding to my question directly, which I took as a form of assent. “Everyone in this place should be kind. Not performatively kind. Actually kind. I want the instructors to mean well. I want the doctors to warn you before they do something that hurts. I want the whole apparatus to be run by people who believe they are doing good, because that’s how it always works. The Magdalene nuns believed they were saving souls. The eugenicists believed they were saving the species. Nobody twirls a mustache. They wash their hands and use the Explaining Voice and believe, truly believe, that the girl on the table is fortunate to have been selected.”

“The Explaining Voice,” Kazuo said. “What is that?”

“You know the voice. The one adults use when they’re telling a child about something frightening but don’t want the child to be frightened. Warm and calm and slightly elevated. Like they’re describing a bee. Something that sounds worse than it is.”

“That’s the voice of the entire institution,” I said.

“That’s the voice of the narrator,” Margaret said. “That’s what she’s learned. She’s internalized it so completely that when she tells you about being examined, about being measured and allocated, she tells you in the Explaining Voice. She tells you it wasn’t so bad. She tells you the food was good. She tells you about the porridge.”

“The porridge,” Kazuo said.

“There should be a detail like that. A small, concrete, domestic comfort that she returns to. Not as deflection — though it is deflection — but as a genuine anchor. Something the institution gave her that was real and good and that she clings to because if the porridge was good then maybe the rest of it was — not good, she wouldn’t go that far — but maybe the rest of it was survivable. And if it was survivable then she survived it. And if she survived it then she’s all right. She has to be all right.”

Nobody spoke for a moment.

“I want to ask about the ending,” I said.

“No,” Kazuo said. “I don’t think we should discuss the ending.”

Margaret raised an eyebrow.

“I mean it. The ending should come from the writing, not from the planning. If we decide now how it ends, we’ll write toward a destination, and the whole piece will have the shape of an argument proceeding to its conclusion. I’d rather it had the shape of someone sitting in a room, looking out a window, trying to tell the truth and not quite being able to.”

“And you?” Margaret asked me. “What shape do you think it should have?”

I thought about it. I thought about Lena — I’d started calling the narrator Lena in my head, though we hadn’t named her — sitting somewhere years later, writing this account. I thought about what it would be like to write about the worst thing that happened to you using the language the worst thing taught you to speak.

“I think it should have the shape of someone who keeps saying ‘I should explain’ and ‘I should mention’ and ‘I should be careful with that word,’ as though the act of telling is itself a kind of institutional procedure. She’s applying the school’s orderliness to her own memory. She’s keeping things tidy. And the horror is in what the tidiness almost conceals.”

Margaret looked at me for a long time.

“Don’t let her off the hook at the end,” she said. “Whatever you do. Don’t let her arrive at a realization that makes her whole. Don’t give her an epiphany that pays for everything. She put the book in the donations bin. That happened. You can’t undo it with insight.”

“She wouldn’t want to be let off the hook,” Kazuo said quietly. “That’s the thing about these narrators. They’re not asking for forgiveness. They’re not even asking for understanding. They’re just telling you what happened, in the only language they have, and the language is broken, and they know the language is broken, and they use it anyway because it’s all they have.”

The tearoom was emptying. The waitress came by with a look that suggested our time with the scones had reached its natural end. Margaret ordered a second coffee she didn’t need. Kazuo poured the last of his tea and found the pot empty.

“One more thing,” Margaret said. “The body. This is a story about what happens to women’s bodies when the state decides those bodies are a resource. I don’t want it to be abstract. I don’t want euphemism. I want the speculum. I want the cold hands. I want the humming.”

“And I want the narrator to describe the speculum,” Kazuo said, “in the same measured tone she uses to describe the lake.”

Margaret smiled. It was not a warm smile. It was the smile of someone who has been handed a knife and recognizes the craftsmanship.

“That,” she said, “is exactly right.”

I gathered my notes. They were a mess — phrases circled, arrows connecting ideas that might not connect, a drawing of a lake I didn’t remember making. Margaret was putting on her coat. Kazuo was folding his napkin into a precise square.

“One last thing,” I said. “Should the reader know what happened to her? At the end? Should we know where she is, what the program did to her life?”

“The reader will know,” Margaret said. “The narrator won’t tell them. But they’ll know.”

Kazuo nodded. He left first, stepping into the garden to take a call. Through the window I watched him stand among the neglected roses, phone pressed to his ear, nodding at something he was being told with an expression of polite attention that gave nothing away.

Margaret was still at the table, zipping her tote bag.

“He’s right about the narrator,” she said, not looking up. “The fondness. The gratitude. That’s the engine. I would have made her angrier, and the story would have been poorer for it.”

She paused.

“Don’t tell him I said that.”