Instruments of Their Own Failure
A discussion between Cormac McCarthy and John le Carré
We met in Tucson, at a motel restaurant off the interstate where the tablecloths were the color of dust and the air conditioning rattled in a way that made you think of bones in a gourd. McCarthy had arrived first, which I hadn’t expected. He sat in the corner booth facing the door. He was drinking black coffee and reading nothing. Le Carré came in wearing a linen jacket that had clearly been appropriate somewhere else — London, maybe, or the better part of Geneva — and looked at the restaurant the way a man looks at a place that confirms something he already suspected about America.
I had water. I ordered it before either of them could order for me, which is a thing that happens at these meetings more than you’d think.
“Canyon country,” McCarthy said, without preamble. He didn’t look at me when he said it. He was looking at the window, where the parking lot shimmered under heat that bent the light. “You want to set a story in canyon country.”
“Arizona Territory, 1886. A cartographer sent to map the last unmapped canyons. An Apache guide who’s leading him in deliberately.”
“Leading him in to what end.”
“To make the land unmappable. To keep it off the Army’s charts.”
McCarthy drank his coffee. “That’s a purpose. Purpose in a guide is a dangerous thing for a writer to give away early. The reader ought to arrive at the guide’s intent the way the cartographer does. Late and with the feeling he should have known sooner.”
Le Carré had been listening with the particular stillness of a man who built a career on listening. He ordered tea, was told they had Lipton, and accepted this the way one accepts a minor diplomatic insult — with grace and private suffering. “The structure you’re describing,” he said, “is an intelligence operation. The guide is running the cartographer. Leading him deeper on false premises. The cartographer believes they share a mission. They don’t.”
“It’s not an intelligence operation,” McCarthy said. “It’s a walk.”
“Every walk has an intelligence structure, if one man knows where they’re going and the other doesn’t.”
“A man walking through country he don’t know isn’t being operated. He’s just lost.”
“He’s lost because someone wants him lost. That’s the operation.”
They looked at each other across the table with an interest that was close to hostility. I realized I was holding my breath and made myself stop.
“Both things,” I said. “It’s a walk and it’s an operation. The cartographer experiences it as geography. The guide experiences it as statecraft. The story has to hold both.”
“The story can hold anything,” McCarthy said. “The question is what the prose sounds like. Does it sound like the land or does it sound like the man thinking about the land.”
“In my experience,” le Carré said, “the most dangerous operations are the ones that feel like scenery until it’s too late.”
McCarthy tilted his head, which was as close to acknowledgment as I’d seen him give. “That ain’t wrong. The judge in Blood Meridian — he collects specimens. Plants, animals, bones. He draws them in his ledger. He’s making an inventory of the world so he can own it. Your cartographer is doing the same thing with different instruments.”
“The judge does it out of something like philosophy,” I said. “The cartographer is just following orders.”
“Following orders is a philosophy. It’s the philosophy of the man who don’t want to be responsible for what his hands do.”
Le Carré leaned forward. “That’s Alden Pyle. The Quiet American. The most dangerous man in Saigon because he believes he’s helping. He can’t see the bodies because he’s looking at the policy. Your cartographer can’t see the canyon because he’s looking at the map.”
“Pyle is innocent,” McCarthy said. “That’s the word Greene uses. Innocent. Is the cartographer innocent?”
This was a real question, not a rhetorical one. I could tell because McCarthy was looking at me now, waiting.
“Yes,” I said. “He has to be. He genuinely believes mapping is a neutral act. That a map is just a description of what’s there.”
“There is no neutral description of what’s there,” McCarthy said. “Every description is a claim. The Spaniards named things. The Americans named things. The Apache had names the Spaniards couldn’t pronounce and the Americans couldn’t hear. Your cartographer draws a line and calls it a boundary. The land don’t know what a boundary is.”
“But the Army does,” le Carré said. “And that’s what makes the map a weapon. Not what the cartographer intends but what the institution does with his work. He draws a line. The line becomes a border. The border becomes a jurisdiction. The jurisdiction becomes a basis for removal.” He paused. “I wrote about this for forty years. The field agent who believes he’s gathering intelligence, not understanding that intelligence is the raw material of someone else’s violence.”
“The guide understands this,” I said.
“The guide has to understand it at the level of his body,” McCarthy said. “Not as an idea. He fought for the Army. He tracked his own people for the Army. He saw what the Army’s maps did. He don’t need a theory about cartographic violence. He carried a rifle into camps where women were sleeping.”
The sentence sat between us. Le Carré picked up his Lipton tea and set it back down without drinking.
“That’s the wound,” I said. “The guide’s wound. He participated. He was the instrument.”
“Every local operative is the instrument,” le Carré said, and something in his voice had moved past the theoretical. “In Berlin, in Hong Kong, in every theater I wrote about — the local man is the one who pays. The case officer flies home. The local man stays in the country where he betrayed someone. The guide fought his own people and now he lives in the territory of that betrayal. The only power he has left is knowledge of the ground.”
“Knowledge of the ground is the oldest power there is,” McCarthy said.
“And the last one the empire takes.”
“They can’t take it. That’s the point. They can kill every Apache in the territory and they still can’t navigate those canyons without one. The land holds information that don’t transfer to paper.”
I asked about the compass. The pitch mentions iron-rich stone that disrupts magnetic north. A real phenomenon in certain canyon systems where ironstone deposits create local anomalies. The cartographer’s instruments fail not because of sabotage but because of geology.
McCarthy’s expression didn’t change, but something shifted behind his eyes. “That’s good. The land resisting measurement. Not as metaphor. As fact. The stone itself refuses the compass. You don’t need the guide to do anything mystical. The ground does it.”
“The ground cooperates with the guide,” le Carré said.
“The ground don’t cooperate with anyone. The ground is the ground. But the guide knows where the anomalies are. He’s walked this country since he was a child. He don’t need a compass because he never had one.”
“That’s the asymmetry,” le Carré said. He was animated now in the way I’d read about — the way he got when a story’s architecture revealed itself. “The empire’s technology is simultaneously its advantage and its vulnerability. The cartographer depends on instruments. The guide depends on memory. In the canyon, memory wins.”
“Memory don’t win,” McCarthy said, flatly enough to stop the conversation. “Nothing wins. The cartographer fails to make his map. The guide fails to save his country. The Army comes back with better instruments, more men. The canyons get mapped eventually. Everything gets mapped eventually. The guide is buying time. He knows he’s buying time. That’s the saddest thing about him.”
We sat with that. The air conditioning rattled. A truck pulled into the parking lot with a sound like the earth settling.
“Is it sad?” le Carré said. “I wrote about men who bought time for forty years and I never thought of them as sad. Futile, perhaps. But futility has a dignity that hope often lacks. The guide doesn’t need to win. He needs to make the operation fail. Even temporarily. Even once.”
“One failed map,” I said. “One set of canyons the Army can’t chart this season. It’s nothing. It changes nothing.”
“It changes everything for the duration of the failure,” le Carré said. “That’s what resistance is. Not victory. Duration.”
McCarthy pushed his coffee cup to the edge of the table. A waitress took it without being asked. “You’re both talking about the guide like he’s the protagonist. He ain’t.”
“He isn’t?”
“No. The cartographer is the protagonist. The guide is the landscape. The guide is what the cartographer has to learn to read, same as the canyons. He thinks the Apache is a person helping him. The Apache is the country itself, leading him in circles.”
“That reduces the guide to a function,” le Carré said, and there was an edge to it.
“Every character is a function. The question is what the function reveals.”
“In my books, the local operative is never a function. He’s the conscience. He’s the one who sees clearly because he has no illusions left to protect.”
“In your books, the local operative dies.”
“Sometimes.”
“Often.”
Le Carré didn’t argue this. He looked at his tea. “The guide should survive. Whatever else happens.”
“I agree,” I said, too quickly, and both of them looked at me with the expression writers give you when you’ve agreed with something without understanding why it matters.
“He should survive,” le Carré said, “because survival is the form his resistance takes. The cartographer can afford to die in the canyon — he’ll be replaced. The Army has more cartographers. The guide cannot be replaced. He is the last person alive who knows this particular piece of ground. His survival is strategic, not sentimental.”
“His survival is biological,” McCarthy said. “A man walks through country and doesn’t die. That’s not strategy. That’s the body doing what it was made to do.”
“Can it be both?”
“It can be both if you don’t announce it. The minute you write a sentence explaining that the guide’s survival is an act of resistance, you’ve killed the story. Let him walk. Let him eat. Let him sleep with one eye toward the cartographer’s tent. The reader will understand what it means.”
I wanted to ask about the ending — whether the cartographer figures out what’s happening, whether he confronts the guide — but McCarthy was already standing. He left money on the table, more than enough, and said something I didn’t catch because the air conditioning surged at that moment and the rattle swallowed his words. He walked out through the glass door and across the parking lot. He did not look back. I watched him get into a truck that was the same color as the parking lot, as the hills beyond the parking lot, as the sky above the hills.
Le Carré remained. He was the kind of man who stays to finish his tea even when the tea isn’t good.
“He’s right about not announcing the theme,” le Carré said. “But he’s wrong about the guide being landscape. The guide is a double agent. He serves two masters — the Army that employs him and the land that made him. He has betrayed both and will betray both again. That divided loyalty is the engine of the story, not the canyons.”
“What if it’s both?” I said again, and this time le Carré allowed it.
“In practice, it’s always both. The landscape and the loyalty. The terrain and the operation. George Smiley couldn’t have run the Circus from a beautiful office — he ran it from a dreary one, and the dreariness was the point. Your canyons should be the same. Not beautiful. Not sublime. Narrow and hot and difficult in ways that make the cartographer question why anyone would want to map them.”
“Why does anyone want to map them?”
“Because they’re there. Because they’re the last ones. Because empire cannot tolerate a blank space on the chart. It isn’t greed — it’s compulsion. The cartographer maps the canyon for the same reason Smiley chases Karla. Not because winning is possible but because the blank space is intolerable.”
He finished his tea. He folded his napkin precisely, a European habit that looked strange in this restaurant where the napkins were paper and nobody folded them.
“The canyon walls are too close for triangulation,” he said, standing. “I like that detail. The instrument requires distance and the land refuses to provide it. The cartographer needs to stand back and the canyon won’t let him. That’s the whole story, isn’t it — an empire that can only see from a distance, and a place that can only be known from inside.”
He left. I sat in the booth and stared at the parking lot where the heat was doing its work on the light, bending it, so that the cars and the hills and the low desert scrub all wavered as if they might not be there at all, as if the whole landscape were a preliminary sketch that someone hadn’t committed to yet. I thought about what it means to map a place that doesn’t want to be mapped. I thought about the cartographer’s instruments failing in the iron-rich dark. I thought about the guide walking ahead, barefoot maybe — the boots the Army gave him left behind somewhere, because you can’t feel the ground through government leather, and feeling the ground is how you know where you are when the compass lies.
That image — the bare feet on the canyon floor — was the only thing I wrote down. Everything else would have to come back to me the way the canyons come back to the guide: not from memory exactly, but from the body’s knowledge of stone, which is older than maps and cannot be transcribed.