The Body Keeps Its Own Books

A discussion between James M. Cain and Megan Abbott


The bar was below street level, down a narrow staircase on a block in Hollywood that hadn’t been fashionable in forty years. The kind of place where the bartender doesn’t look up when you walk in, where the vinyl on the stools has cracked into something that feels organic, almost biological, like the skin of something that died here and was never removed. There was a Schlitz sign in the window that buzzed at a frequency just below thought. It was eleven-fifteen on a Tuesday night and the place was nearly empty.

Cain was already there. He sat at the end of the bar with a bourbon and a cigarette that he wasn’t supposed to be smoking — the bartender had waved at the no-smoking sign once, and Cain had looked at him, and that was the end of that. He was smaller than I’d expected. Compact. The kind of man who takes up less space than his voice suggests. His hands were square and blunt and they held the glass like it was a tool, not a pleasure.

Abbott arrived fifteen minutes late and didn’t apologize for it. She ordered a gin and tonic, sat two stools down from Cain, and set her bag between them like a border. She was wearing dark lipstick and a jacket that looked expensive in a way that didn’t announce itself. She had the posture of someone who’d spent time in rooms where you had to watch the door.

I sat between them. I ordered a beer I didn’t want. I had my notebook out, which already felt like the wrong move — too eager, too organized for this particular conversation.

“So,” Cain said. He didn’t look at me. He was looking at the row of bottles behind the bar the way a man looks at a jury — assessing, already knowing the verdict. “You want to write a noir about two women.”

“I want to write a confession,” I said. “A woman in Memphis. Insurance fraud. Her business partner pulls her into a scheme, and the scheme goes wrong, and she’s telling you how she got there.”

“From a jail cell,” Cain said.

“From a room in the Shelby County Criminal Justice Center.”

“Same thing.” He took a drag. “What’s her name?”

“Leigh Alford.”

“Good. Hard sound. The L and the D. You can feel it in the jaw.” He set his cigarette in the ashtray. “And the other one? The one who does the pulling?”

“Nola Price.”

“Also good. Nola. Two syllables. Goes down smooth. Like something you’d order.” He picked up his glass. “Now tell me why this isn’t just Double Indemnity with women.”

I had been expecting this, but not this fast. “Because the relationship between them isn’t the same as Walter and Phyllis. Walter wants Phyllis. That’s it. He wants her body and he’ll kill for access to it. Leigh wants Nola, but it’s more than that. It’s about what Nola represents — presence, power, a way of being in the world that Leigh doesn’t have.”

Abbott spoke for the first time. “You’re already wrong about Walter.”

I turned to her. She was stirring her drink with the little cocktail straw, slowly, the way people stir things when they’re thinking about something else entirely.

“Walter doesn’t just want Phyllis’s body. He wants to be the kind of man who can have a woman like Phyllis. The desire isn’t horizontal — it’s not him reaching across a room toward her. It’s vertical. He wants to climb up into a version of himself that she makes possible. That’s what makes it noir instead of just a crime story. The crime isn’t the point. The self-deception is the point.”

Cain looked at her for the first time. Not warmly, not coldly. The way you look at a card that just got played. “That’s a reading,” he said.

“That’s what’s on the page.”

“What’s on the page is a man who wants a woman. Everything else is what people put there later, at universities.”

“Everything else is what you put there and didn’t notice,” Abbott said. “Because you were Walter. You wrote from inside that desire so completely that you couldn’t see the architecture of it. You thought you were writing about wanting and you were writing about becoming.”

Cain’s jaw moved. Not quite a smile. “Maybe. Doesn’t matter what I intended. What matters is what works.”

“We agree on that.”

“Good. Then tell me —” he pointed at me with his cigarette — “this narrator. Leigh. She’s sitting in a room telling you how she got wrecked. I know that structure. I built that structure. The question is whether she knows she’s doing it.”

“What do you mean?”

“I mean: is she confessing, or is she performing a confession? Walter knows he’s finished. He’s telling the story because the story is all he’s got left. He’s not trying to understand himself. He’s trying to make you understand what it felt like, and that’s a different project. Completely different. One is therapy. The other is seduction. You need to know which one your woman is doing.”

I thought about it. “Both,” I said.

Abbott made a sound — a short exhale, almost a laugh. “You can’t say both. Both is a dodge. Both means you haven’t decided.”

“Or it means she hasn’t decided. That she’s sitting in that room and she doesn’t know if she’s trying to explain herself or justify herself, and the story is the act of trying to figure out which one it is.”

Cain shook his head. “No. That’s literary fiction. That’s a character sitting in a chair having thoughts about thoughts. In noir, the narrator is doing something with the story. Using it. The confession is the last con. Even when they’re being honest, they’re working you. Leigh is in a room and she’s talking to someone — a lawyer, a detective, a tape recorder, God, I don’t care — and every sentence she says is shaped. She’s picking what to show you and what to leave in the dark, and that’s what makes it noir, not the crime. The darkness is in the telling.”

“But there’s a crack,” Abbott said. “There has to be a crack. The place where the performance fails and something real slips through. If the narrator is all control, it’s a dead thing. A trick. What makes first-person noir work — what makes your stuff work when it works —” she nodded at Cain, and there was something careful in the gesture, respect held at arm’s length — “is the moment when the voice breaks. When the narrator says something they didn’t mean to say. Something too honest for the performance to contain.”

“The body,” I said.

They both looked at me.

“That’s where the crack is. The body. Leigh’s confession is controlled — she’s choosing what to tell us, shaping it, performing it. But when she talks about Nola’s body — the freckles on her forearms, the scar on the back of her hand, the way she smelled in the office after she left — the prose changes. It gets hungrier. Less controlled. The body breaks the performance.”

Abbott set down her drink. “Now you’re getting somewhere.”

Cain said nothing for a moment. He was watching the Schlitz sign flicker. Then: “Fine. The body. But be careful with that. You’re writing a woman’s desire for another woman, and you’re not a woman and you’re not human, and if you get precious about it — if you turn it into something soft and lyrical and beautiful — you’ll kill it. Desire in noir isn’t beautiful. It’s a sickness. It’s the flu. You feel it in your stomach before you feel it anywhere else, and it makes you stupid, and you know it’s making you stupid, and you do the stupid thing anyway.”

“I wouldn’t say sickness,” Abbott said.

“What would you say?”

“Intelligence. A different kind of intelligence. The body knows things the mind refuses to know. When Leigh looks at Nola and wants her, that wanting contains information. It’s telling her: this woman is dangerous, this woman will ruin you, and you need to get close to the danger because the danger is where you’re most alive. That’s not stupidity. That’s the body reading the room faster than the brain can.”

“And doing something catastrophically dumb with the reading,” Cain said.

“And acting on it, yes. But there’s a difference between stupidity and submission. Leigh isn’t too dumb to see what’s happening. She’s too honest to pretend she doesn’t want it.”

I was writing fast. “So the desire is — it’s the engine, but it’s also the intelligence. She’s drawn to Nola because Nola is everything Leigh has disciplined herself not to be. Nola is physical, present, takes up space. And Leigh has spent her whole life being careful, being small, building something from nothing after a bad marriage —”

“Don’t give me the backstory,” Cain said. “I don’t care about the backstory.”

“But the backstory is —”

“The backstory is what writers talk about when they’re avoiding the scene. I don’t want to know about her marriage. I don’t want to know about her childhood. I want to know what happens in the room when Nola sits on her desk and pours bourbon. I want to know what Leigh’s hands do. Where her eyes go. What she smells. Backstory is for therapists. Noir is for the moment the trap closes, and the sound it makes, and the fact that you walked in knowing it was a trap.”

“He’s half right,” Abbott said.

“I’m all right.”

“You’re half right. The backstory doesn’t belong in the foreground, but it has to be in the body. In the way Leigh carries herself. A woman who survived a man who hit the wall next to her head — she moves differently. She’s hyperaware of hands. She tracks where people are in a room. When Nola touches her, it means something specific because of what touch has meant before. You don’t explain that. You put it in the muscle of the prose.”

“In the verb,” I said. “Not the exposition.”

“In the verb,” she agreed. “Leigh doesn’t ‘remember’ her marriage. Her body flinches when someone moves too fast. That’s the backstory.”

There was a pause. The bartender put on a record — something with a saxophone, loose and late-night. Cain finished his bourbon and signaled for another without looking.

“Now. The other woman,” he said. “Nola.”

“What about her?”

“She’s a femme fatale and you know it and I know it and the reader knows it. The question is what you do with that. Because the femme fatale is a machine. She exists to destroy the protagonist. She’s a function, not a person. And if that’s all she is in your story, it’s 1944 and we’re all wasting our time.”

Abbott leaned forward. “That’s what I’ve spent my career arguing against. The femme fatale isn’t a function. She’s a woman in a world that gives her no power except the power of being wanted. The fatale isn’t evil — she’s strategic. She’s using the only currency the world recognizes, and the world punishes her for it, and the tragedy is that the punishment was coming whether she used it or not.”

“Save the thesis for the lecture hall,” Cain said. “I’m asking a practical question. In this story, does Nola have an interior life, or is she a surface? Because in first-person narration from Leigh, we only see what Leigh sees. And what Leigh sees is the surface — the mouth, the collarbone, the way she crosses her legs. You can’t give Nola an interior without breaking point of view, and if you break point of view you break the story.”

He was right about this. I felt it. “So Nola stays a surface. But a surface that we understand is a surface because Leigh understands it’s a surface. She knows she’s being played. She says it in the confession — ‘I knew what Nola was.’ The tragedy isn’t that she was fooled. It’s that she wasn’t.”

“That’s a Cain move,” Abbott said. “The informed victim.”

“I’ve been doing this since before you were born,” Cain said. He didn’t say it as a boast. He said it the way you state the weather.

“And I’ve been doing it since I understood what was wrong with how you did it,” Abbott said. “Which brings me to the body. Not desire this time. The body as crime scene.”

I waited.

“In your books —” she was talking to Cain — “the crime happens to the body from the outside. Someone gets shot, hit, burned. Violence is external. It arrives. In what I write, the body is already the crime scene before anyone lays a hand on it. A girl’s body in a competitive environment — a cheerleading squad, a gymnastics team, a law firm — is already being surveilled, already being measured, already being used. The violence is ambient. It’s the air pressure.”

“That’s not noir,” Cain said. “That’s sociology.”

“That’s noir from the inside. You wrote about men who walked into the dark. I write about women who were born there.”

Cain’s glass stopped halfway to his mouth. He set it back down. He didn’t concede. But the silence was a kind of concession.

“For this story,” I said, carefully, because I could feel the temperature in the room, “I think both are true. The crime — the insurance fraud, the fire, the money — that’s the external structure. The Cain engine. But the real damage is relational. It’s what Nola does to Leigh by being inside her life, inside her bed, inside her trust. The scheme is the skeleton. The relationship is the flesh.”

“And the flesh is where the rot starts,” Abbott said.

“Don’t get poetic on me,” Cain said. “Rot is rot. It smells bad and you can see it. Keep it concrete.”

“Concrete, then. When the investigator shows up — the woman from Atlanta — what destroys Leigh isn’t the legal exposure. It’s learning that Nola did this before. In Nashville. With someone else. That the thing Leigh thought was singular — their desire, their conspiracy, the two of them against the world — was a pattern. A template. And Leigh was just the next one filled in.”

“The con behind the con,” Cain said. “I like that.”

“It’s not just a con,” Abbott said. “That’s the part you’d miss. It’s worse than a con. A con is a trick and you get over it. What Nola did is she made Leigh’s body a liar. She made desire itself into a forgery. And that’s the thing Leigh can’t recover from — not the prison sentence, not the fraud charge. It’s that her own wanting, the realest thing she knew, was counterfeit. Or maybe it wasn’t. Maybe Nola wanted her too. And it doesn’t matter, because the wanting was wired to a detonator either way.”

“You’re saying the truth of the desire is irrelevant.”

“I’m saying the desire was always going to destroy her. Whether Nola meant it or faked it. The outcome is identical. That’s what makes it noir — not that someone lied, but that the truth wouldn’t have saved you.”

I felt something click. Not a resolution — more like a key turning in a lock I hadn’t known was there. “The truth wouldn’t have saved you. That’s the line. That’s what separates this from a betrayal story. Leigh isn’t destroyed by deception. She’s destroyed by desire itself. Nola is the instrument, but desire is the weapon.”

“Stop summarizing,” Cain said. “You’re turning a live thing into a thesis.”

“He’s right,” Abbott said, and she sounded almost amused. “You keep reaching for the neat version. The version that fits on a jacket flap. But the story has to be messier than that. Leigh has to still want Nola at the end. In the jail cell. After everything. She has to reach for her in her sleep. Not because she’s noble or tragic or because desire transcends betrayal — that’s a greeting card. Because the body doesn’t care about your reasons. The body wants what it wants and it does not file an appeal.”

“You’re describing addiction,” I said.

“I’m describing being alive,” Abbott said. “Addiction is what we call desire when we’re afraid of it.”

Cain turned on his stool to face her fully for the first time. “That’s good,” he said. He said it the way a carpenter says good about a joint that fits flush — professional respect, nothing more.

“I know,” she said.

The bartender was wiping down the other end of the bar. The saxophone on the record was doing something slow and circular, a phrase that kept almost resolving and then falling back into itself. I wanted to talk about Memphis — about the heat, about the river, about how the city should function in the story. But the conversation had landed somewhere and I didn’t want to push it off the ledge.

“One more thing,” I said. “The California thing. The heat. Both of you write heat — the sun, the sweat, Southern California, summer. In this story it’s Memphis instead of LA, but the same logic. The sun as witness. As accomplice.”

“The sun doesn’t care about you,” Cain said. “That’s the point. LA sun, Memphis sun, doesn’t matter. The sun shines on everything — the scheme, the sex, the fire, the trial — and it doesn’t give a damn. People want weather to be metaphor. Weather is just weather. But the trick is you put your characters in the heat and the heat does something to them. It makes them stupid. It makes them lazy. It makes them make the decision they were always going to make, because the heat takes away the energy to resist.”

“The heat as permission,” Abbott said. “I’d go further. For women, the sun does something specific. It makes the body visible. You can’t hide in August. Skin is out. Sweat is visible. The body is on display whether you choose it or not. And that visibility is power and vulnerability at the same time. When Leigh notices the freckles on Nola’s forearms — copper and gold — she’s seeing something the sun made. Something Nola didn’t choose to show her. And that involuntary reveal is more intimate than anything that happens later in a locked office.”

I wrote that down. “The sun as accidental intimacy.”

“Don’t name it,” Abbott said. “Write it.”

The record ended. The bartender didn’t put on another one. The silence in the bar was the kind of silence that has texture — the hum of a refrigerator, traffic through a wall, someone’s chair creaking upstairs in an apartment that might have been empty.

Cain stood up. He put cash on the bar — too much, the way men of a certain generation leave too much because counting change is beneath them. He looked at me.

“Your narrator is going to tell this story as a confession. She’s going to start by telling you it started in the body. She’s going to walk you through the scheme and the sex and the fire and the betrayal, and at the end she’s going to say something she doesn’t understand about herself, something about wanting that the words can’t quite hold. Don’t explain it. Don’t resolve it. Let the reader sit with the same confusion she’s sitting with.”

“And the last line?” I asked.

“Make it hurt,” he said. “Not sad. Not poignant. Hurt. The way a burn hurts. Clean.”

He left. The door at the top of the stairs let in a strip of streetlight and then closed again.

Abbott finished her drink. She didn’t stand up yet.

“He’s right about the ending,” she said. “But he’s wrong about one thing. He thinks the body is the setting. The stage where desire plays out. It’s not. The body is the story. Every scar, every flinch, every place Leigh reaches for Nola in her sleep — that’s the narrative. The insurance fraud is just what the body’s story costs when it intersects with the law.”

“So the body keeps its own books,” I said.

She picked up her bag. “And the body does not balance,” she said. “That’s your story. That’s the whole thing, right there.”

She was halfway to the stairs when she turned back. “One more thing. When you write Nola — when you describe how she moves, how she sits, how she works a room — don’t write it from the outside. Don’t describe her the way a camera would. Describe her the way skin would. The way someone who wants to touch her would. That’s the difference between noir about women and noir about men looking at women. The gaze has to come from inside the body that wants, not from above it.”

Then she was gone, and I was alone at the bar with a beer I hadn’t finished and a notebook full of things I was going to get wrong at least twice before I got them right. The Schlitz sign buzzed. The refrigerator hummed. Somewhere above me, the empty apartment creaked.

I paid my tab. I left.

Outside, the street was warm in a way that had nothing to do with the weather.