On Warts, Whiskers, and the Trouble with Paying Attention

A discussion between Becky Chambers and T.H. White


We met in a room that was trying very hard to be a study and almost succeeding. The bookshelves were proper bookshelves, floor-to-ceiling, but the books themselves had been arranged by color rather than author, which gave the whole thing the appearance of a very literate sunset. There was a desk under the window covered in owl pellets in various stages of dissection, a terrarium with no visible occupant, and a kettle that had been boiling for so long it had developed what I can only describe as a personality.

Chambers was cross-legged on the floor cushion, holding a mug that said WORLD’S OKAYEST SPACEFARER in chipped lettering. White was in the armchair by the fire — the kind of battered leather armchair that looks like it grew there — with a merlin on his fist. An actual merlin. A small fierce falcon with a gaze like polished copper, shifting its weight from foot to foot on his gloved hand. I decided not to ask.

“Second person,” Chambers said. She said it the way someone says the name of a dish they’ve ordered before and had mixed feelings about.

“Second person,” I confirmed. “It’s the risk card. The ‘you’ has to be specific and earned.”

“Good. Because second person is either the best tool in the box or the worst, and the difference is whether the writer knows who the ‘you’ is.” She took a sip. “It can’t be generic. It can’t be ‘you, the hypothetical reader.’ It needs to be someone.”

White had been watching the merlin rather than either of us. When he spoke, his voice had the particular quality of someone who is simultaneously addressing you and remembering something that happened a very long time ago. “The ‘you’ is the apprentice. Obviously.”

“Obviously,” I said.

“And the apprentice is being transformed into animals to learn magic. Which is — well. It’s the Wart, isn’t it. That’s the structure. Merlyn turns the boy into various creatures and each creature teaches him something about the world and about ruling and about himself, and the lessons accumulate until they form something like wisdom, though I always thought wisdom was the wrong word for what Wart ended up with.”

“What’s the right word?” I asked.

“Bewilderment. Useful bewilderment. He’d been a fish and a hawk and an ant and a badger, and the sum of those experiences wasn’t knowledge — it was a kind of permanent astonishment at how many ways there are to be alive. Which is not the same thing as knowing how to run a kingdom, I admit. Arthur was a catastrophe as a king. But he was a catastrophe who had been a fish, and that has to count for something.”

Chambers laughed. She had the kind of laugh that pulled you into it — not performative, just genuinely amused. “That’s exactly where I want to push, though. What the transformations teach. Because in The Sword in the Stone, the lessons are partly about governance. The pike teaches about tyranny. The ants teach about totalitarianism. There’s a moral architecture to it, even when the individual scenes are chaotic and wonderful. And I think that’s wrong for this story.”

White turned to look at her directly. The merlin turned too, which was slightly unnerving. “You think the moral architecture is wrong.”

“I think the moral architecture is too much architecture. If the apprentice gets turned into a sparrow and the lesson is ‘this is what freedom means,’ then the transformation is just a delivery system for a thesis. The animal is a symbol. And animals aren’t symbols. Animals are animals. The sparrow isn’t trying to teach you anything about freedom. The sparrow is trying to find food and stay warm and not get eaten by something with better eyes. And the lesson — if there is one — comes from paying attention to those things. From noticing that the sparrow’s whole existence is organized around problems that have nothing to do with you.”

“You want the transformations to be about attention rather than meaning.”

“I want the transformations to be about attention as meaning. The act of paying close attention to a creature that is not you — really attending to it, with your whole body because you literally have a different body — that’s the magic. Not power. Not governance. Attention.”

White stood up. The merlin adjusted its grip. He walked to the window and looked out at whatever was out there — I couldn’t see from where I was sitting, but from his expression it was either a garden or a battlefield, and with White those might be the same thing.

“You’re not wrong,” he said. “But you’re not entirely right either, and I want to be precise about where the gap is. Attention is necessary. But attention without stakes is tourism. The Wart didn’t just observe the fish. He was the fish. He was prey. He felt the cold of the water in a body that was built for the cold, and he felt the terror of the pike in a body that was built to flee, and the lesson landed because it was felt in the bones and the blood and the gills. The attention came after. The attention was what survived the experience. But the experience itself was — it was play. Dangerous play. The kind of play where you skin your knee and cry and go back for more.”

He turned back to us. “Learning should be fun even when it hurts. Especially when it hurts. The hurt is how you know you’re learning something real. A lesson that doesn’t cost you anything isn’t a lesson. It’s a pamphlet.”

I was writing frantically. “So the transformations aren’t safe.”

“Of course they’re not safe. Were the transformations safe for the Wart? He nearly died as a fish. He nearly went mad with the ants. But the danger wasn’t the point. The joy was the point. The danger was just the price of admission.”

Chambers set down her mug. “This is where we’re going to fight.”

“I rather hoped so,” White said.

“Because I agree that stakes matter. I do. But I don’t agree that the stakes have to be physical danger. A Psalm for the Wild-Built — the robot and the monk traveling through the wilderness — the stakes are never physical. Nobody’s going to die. The threat isn’t death. The threat is the question the robot keeps asking: ‘What do you need?’ And Dex can’t answer it. That’s the real danger. Not a pike. Not madness. The danger of being asked a question you’ve organized your whole life to avoid.”

“That’s emotional danger.”

“That’s the only danger that matters in cozy fantasy. Physical danger is — look, I understand its narrative function. I do. But cozy fantasy made a promise to the reader. The promise is: you are safe here. The world is kind, or at least capable of kindness. Nobody is going to be eaten by a pike. And within that safety, we find the things that are actually terrifying. Which are always, always internal.”

White sat back down. The merlin made a small sound that might have been agreement or might have been a comment on the quality of the perch. “You’re asking me to give up the pike.”

“I’m asking you to find what the pike was really about and give it to the reader without teeth.”

A silence. The kettle expressed something. I took it off the heat and made a pot of tea that nobody had asked for, because I needed to do something with my hands while two writers I admired figured out whether they could build something together or whether this was going to end with an armchair thrown through a window.

White took a cup. He held it the way he held the falcon — carefully, with attention to its weight. “The pike was about the moment when you realize something bigger than you doesn’t care whether you live or die. The indifference of the large toward the small. Wart needed to feel that because a king who has never felt small will be a tyrant. He needed to know, in his actual body, what it’s like to be the thing that gets eaten.”

“Right,” Chambers said. “And that’s beautiful. But what if the apprentice learns the same thing differently? What if the transformation into a small creature — a vole, say, or a wren — doesn’t put them in danger of being eaten, but instead makes them pay attention at a scale they’ve never experienced? The wren doesn’t think about the hawk. The wren thinks about this seed. This twig. This angle of wind. The wren’s world is so local, so intimate, so close to the ground that everything the apprentice thought mattered — their ambitions, their anxieties, their whole human drama — just falls away. Not because they’re afraid. Because they’re small enough that those things genuinely don’t exist anymore.”

White’s expression changed. Something opened in it. “That’s not safety. That’s annihilation.”

“Yes. But a kind annihilation. The annihilation of ego, not of body. The apprentice becomes a wren and for fifteen minutes their entire identity dissolves into the problem of a seed casing that won’t crack, and when they come back to themselves they’re — lighter? No. That’s not it. They’re less certain. Less organized. They’ve felt what it’s like to be a consciousness without a self, and it’s terrifying and it’s gorgeous, and they don’t have words for it yet.”

I was gripping my pen too hard. “That’s what the second person does.”

They both looked at me. I hadn’t meant to say it out loud, but now that I had, I could feel the shape of it.

“The second person. ‘You feel the seed casing against your beak. You press, and the shell gives, and the kernel inside is warm and slightly bitter, and for a moment that is all you are — the press and the give and the taste.’ The ‘you’ makes the reader undergo the transformation. It’s not reported. It’s not observed. It’s happened to you, the reader, just now, in this sentence. Your ego was annihilated for the length of a paragraph, and Becky’s point about attention and White’s point about physical experience and danger — they’re the same thing. The danger is the dissolution. The attention is what comes back.”

Chambers was quiet for a beat. Then: “Don’t oversell it.”

“I’m not —”

“You are. You’re doing the thing where you find the synthesis and you want to put a frame around it and hang it on the wall. Don’t. The second person will work if — and only if — each transformation earns its ‘you.’ If the apprentice becomes a wren and the prose becomes wren-shaped. Short lines. Close focus. Everything immediate. And then they become — what, a salmon? An otter?”

“A carp,” White said. “Slow. Patient. Bottom-dwelling. The consciousness of a carp is ninety percent waiting and ten percent movement, and the waiting isn’t boredom, it’s a different relationship with time. A carp in a pond is experiencing time the way a stone experiences weather. Slowly. Entirely.”

“And the prose changes for the carp,” I said. “Longer sentences. Fewer breaks. The ‘you’ becomes sluggish, contemplative —”

“The ‘you’ becomes wet,” White said. “Let’s not get too metaphysical about it. The ‘you’ is in cold water and can feel the mud through its belly and the light is different — everything is amber and green and comes from above — and the carp doesn’t think about what the light means. The carp just swims through it. The carp is, for the duration of being a carp, free of interpretation. And that freedom — being alive without interpreting your aliveness — that’s the gift of the transformation. That’s what the teacher is giving the apprentice.”

“The teacher,” Chambers said. “We should talk about the teacher.”

“Merlyn,” White said.

“Not Merlyn. Merlyn is yours. This story’s teacher needs to be different.”

“Merlyn lived backwards through time,” White said, and there was something in his voice that was not quite defensiveness but was at least its second cousin. “He remembered the future and forgot the past. Which made him the worst possible mentor — always sad about things that hadn’t happened yet, always startled by things everyone else remembered. It was comic because it was genuinely awful. He couldn’t relate to anyone on their own terms. He was permanently out of sync.”

“And I love that,” Chambers said. “I love that he was lonely because of what he knew. But the teacher in this story — I think the teacher should be kind in a way Merlyn wasn’t always kind. Deliberately kind. Not bumbling into wisdom but choosing gentleness as a teaching method. Because the transformations are disorienting. The apprentice is losing their body, their sense of self, their whole framework for understanding reality. And someone has to be there when they come back. Someone has to hand them a cup of tea and say, ‘Yes, that was a lot. Here. Drink this. You’re still you.’”

“That’s the cozy,” I said.

“That’s the cozy. The return. The hot drink after the cold water. The warm room after the small, terrifying body. Cozy fantasy isn’t about avoiding difficulty. It’s about the infrastructure of care that surrounds difficulty. It’s about someone having put the kettle on before you knew you needed it.”

White made a noise. “I want the teacher to be eccentric, at least. A comfortable teacher is a boring teacher. Let the teacher be — let the teacher have odd habits. Let the teacher keep a jar of wasps on the mantelpiece and refer to them by name. Let the teacher disagree with gravity on principle. Let the teacher be wrong about something important in a way that matters. Because a perfect teacher is just a vending machine for wisdom, and that’s death.”

“The teacher can be eccentric and kind. Those aren’t opposites.”

“No, but they’re in tension. True kindness sometimes looks like unkindness. When Merlyn turned the Wart into an ant, it was cruel. The ant colony was a nightmare — no free will, no individual thought, just the collective and its demands. And Wart was horrified. And Merlyn knew he would be. And he did it anyway, because the horror was the lesson, and a teacher who shields their student from every horror is just creating a different kind of ant.”

The merlin on White’s fist spread its wings suddenly — a quick, full extension that took up more space than seemed possible from such a small body — and then folded them back. It happened in less than a second. The air moved.

“I don’t think this teacher uses horror,” Chambers said. “I think this teacher uses wonder. And wonder is disorienting enough. You don’t need the ant colony. You need the moment when the apprentice is a moth and realizes they can taste the air. The moment when they’re a newt and the world is all vibration. The disorientation isn’t fear. It’s awe. And awe is its own kind of pain, because awe is the feeling of your categories failing. Your boxes aren’t big enough. The world is more than you thought, and you’re less, and that recalibration — it hurts. Not because anything has gone wrong. Because something has gone right for the first time.”

White said nothing for a while. He stroked the merlin’s breast feathers with one finger, a gesture so practiced it was almost unconscious. The falcon closed its eyes.

“Fine,” he said. “You can have your wonder. But the apprentice has to be bad at it.”

“Bad at wonder?”

“Bad at paying attention. At first. Because that’s how learning works — you’re dreadful and then you’re slightly less dreadful and the gap between those two states is where all the comedy lives. The apprentice becomes a wren and spends the whole time trying to think human thoughts in a wren body and misses the entire point. They become a carp and panic because the water is cold and they can’t find their arms. The comedy isn’t decoration. The comedy is the learning. You learn by failing stupidly and then failing less stupidly and then — one day — not failing at all, and that moment, the moment when you finally pay attention to the actual world instead of your story about the world, that’s the moment the magic lands.”

“The ‘you’ earns itself,” I said. “At the beginning of the story, ‘you’ means the reader watching the apprentice stumble. By the end, ‘you’ means the reader is the apprentice. The pronoun has done the same work as the transformations — it’s slowly dissolved the distance between the reader and the character until there’s no distance left.”

“That’s ambitious,” Chambers said.

“Too ambitious?”

“Ask me when I’ve read it.”

White stood. The merlin opened its eyes. “One more thing. The ending. Don’t make the last transformation the biggest animal. Don’t save the dragon for act three. Make the last transformation small. Smaller than anything before. Make the apprentice become — I don’t know. A bumblebee. Something so small and so ordinary that the reader thinks they’ve already learned this lesson. And then the bee pays attention to a single flower, one flower, for the length of one paragraph, and the attention is so complete, so absolute, that the reader understands — for the first time, really understands — what all the transformations were for. They were for this. This single act of being entirely present with one living thing.”

Chambers was nodding. “And then the apprentice comes back and the teacher is there and the tea is warm and nobody says anything about what just happened, because what just happened doesn’t need to be explained. It just needs to be held.”

“And the ‘you’? In that last paragraph?”

“The ‘you’ is everyone.”

White was at the door. The merlin was looking back at me with the expression of a creature that has spent its entire evolutionary history being paid very close attention to and finds nothing unusual about it.

“Get the wren right,” White said. “The wren is where you’ll know if the story works. If the reader can feel the seed casing, everything else follows. If they can’t, no amount of bees will save you.”

He left. The merlin went with him. Chambers stayed, drinking the last of her tea.

“He’s right about the wren,” she said.

“I know.”

“But he’s wrong about the bees. The bees will save you regardless. Bees always do.”

She didn’t explain what she meant by that. I didn’t ask. Some things are better left as seeds — held without cracking, trusted to open in their own time, in whatever soil the story turns out to be.