On Labyrinths, Lard, and What the Dead Remember Best
A discussion between Isabel Allende and Jorge Luis Borges
The cafe was wrong for Borges. Too warm, too crowded, the radio behind the counter playing a cumbia that rattled the spoons in their saucers. He sat with his back to the window, his hands folded over a cane he did not need — a prop, I suspected, or a habit borrowed from some other version of himself. His coffee was black and untouched.
Allende arrived twelve minutes late, trailing a scarf the color of dried blood, and immediately began rearranging the table. She moved the sugar bowl to the left, stacked the napkins into a neater pile, and angled her chair so that she could see the door.
“I cannot write in a room if I don’t know where the exit is,” she said. It wasn’t an apology. It was an announcement.
Borges did not look up. “I have spent my career suggesting there may not be one.”
I had a notebook open. I had questions prepared. Neither would matter within five minutes.
“The story,” I began, “is about a woman who returns to a town to settle her grandmother’s estate. The town is — I think the town might be populated by the dead. Or at least by people who are not entirely alive. And the grandmother’s kitchen is central. The recipes—”
“Stop,” Allende said. She held up a hand. “You’re already wrong. You said ‘the town might be’ — this is the first problem. The town IS. In this kind of story, you cannot be uncertain about whether the dead are present. They are present. The uncertainty is in what they want.”
“I would disagree,” Borges said, his voice carrying that particular precision of a man who disagreed with everything and everyone, including, occasionally, his own earlier positions. “The uncertainty of whether the dead are present is far more interesting than certainty of their desires. A ghost who wants something is merely a character with poor circulation. A presence that may or may not be a ghost — that is a philosophical problem.”
“A philosophical problem does not make a woman weep in her kitchen at three in the morning,” Allende said.
“No. But it might explain why she cannot stop.”
I wrote that down. Both of them watched me write it down. Neither seemed satisfied that I had captured what they meant.
“Let me try again,” I said. “The grandmother — I’m calling her Consuelo, though I might change it — Consuelo has been dead for eight months. Her granddaughter, Nilda, comes back to the town of Cruces to handle the property. The house, the land, whatever debts. But when she arrives, the kitchen is still going. Someone is cooking.”
Allende leaned forward. “Who is cooking?”
“I don’t know yet. Maybe no one. Maybe the kitchen itself. Maybe a neighbor who has been coming in, or maybe Consuelo—”
“Consuelo is cooking,” Allende said, flatly, as if this were obvious. “Consuelo is dead and she is cooking. This is not a mystery. This is a Tuesday.”
Borges almost smiled. I could see it in the thinning of his lips, which was as close to amusement as his face seemed willing to travel. “And the granddaughter? She accepts this?”
“She would have to,” Allende said. “If she grew up in that kitchen. You do not question a dead grandmother’s cooking. You eat.”
“But,” I said, pushing against Allende’s certainty because something in Borges’s hesitation felt important, “what if Nilda has been away? What if she left the town years ago, deliberately, and she’s forgotten — or forced herself to forget — what happens in that kitchen?”
Borges set his cane against the table. “Now you have something. A woman who returns to a place she fled. Not because she didn’t believe in its strangeness but because she believed in it too well. The exile is self-imposed. The return is reluctant. And the town has continued without her attention, as all labyrinths do.”
“It is not a labyrinth,” Allende said. “It is a kitchen.”
“Every kitchen I have ever been lost in was a labyrinth,” Borges replied. “My mother’s. My wife’s. The one in the house on Calle Maipú where the cook kept rearranging the shelves and I could never find the mate. A kitchen is a labyrinth with better smells.”
I laughed. Allende did not.
“Jorge, a labyrinth is a man’s idea of domestic space. You walk through it looking for the center, or the exit, as if that is the point. A kitchen does not have a center. A kitchen has a rhythm. You are in it or you are not. The women in my books do not get lost in their kitchens. They ARE their kitchens. The kitchen is the body.”
She said this with such force that the man at the next table looked over.
“Then the story is about a woman returning to her own body,” I said, slowly, aware I was making a claim I might not be able to support. “Nilda left the town because she left the kitchen because she left — what? The family? The tradition? The obligation to cook what Consuelo cooked?”
“The obligation to feel what Consuelo felt,” Allende corrected. “In this tradition — and I speak now not as a novelist but as a Chilean woman who watched her mother and her grandmother turn suffering into empanadas — the cooking is not a metaphor for emotion. The cooking IS emotion. When you prepare a dish your grandmother made, you are not remembering her grief. You are producing it. You are standing at the stove and your hands are doing what her hands did and your body cannot tell the difference between your sorrow and hers.”
Borges had gone quiet. He was turning his coffee cup in small rotations, a gesture I would later realize he did when he was genuinely thinking rather than performing thought.
“There is a story I wrote once,” he said, “about a man who discovers a point in space that contains all other points. The Aleph. He sees everything simultaneously — every angle, every room, every moment. It is unbearable and beautiful. What you are describing, Isabel, is the Aleph of the kitchen. The granddaughter returns, she cooks the grandmother’s recipe, and she experiences not one meal but every meal that recipe has ever produced. Every hand that stirred it. Every argument that happened over it. Every birth, every funeral, every ordinary Wednesday lunch.”
“Yes,” Allende said. “Except it is not a point in space. It is a pot of beans.”
“A pot of beans that contains all other pots of beans.”
“Now you are being ridiculous.”
“I have made a career of being precisely ridiculous.”
Something was opening between them — not agreement, exactly, but a shared space where their disagreements produced heat rather than walls. I could feel the story taking shape in the friction.
“Can I ask about the political layer?” I said. “Allende, your work always has politics woven through the family story. The House of the Spirits doesn’t separate the personal from the national. And in Like Water for Chocolate — which is one of our structural sources — the Mexican Revolution is happening outside the kitchen walls, and the kitchen becomes the only space where women have power.”
“Not power,” Allende said. “Agency. Power implies someone granted it. The women in those kitchens took what the men forgot to guard. A kitchen is what remains when the revolution takes everything else. This is true in Chile. It was true for my grandmother, who fed the resistance from a stove the secret police never thought to search.”
“Should Cruces have that?” I pressed. “A political dimension? A reason the town emptied, or a regime, or—”
“Every town in Latin America has a political dimension,” Allende said. “You do not need to name the regime. The regime names itself in the architecture. Which houses are empty. Which walls have bullet holes that someone plastered over but did not paint. The political layer is the plaster.”
Borges shifted in his chair. Politics made him uncomfortable in a way that was itself political, and he knew it, and the knowing did not make it less uncomfortable. “I have always maintained that the political and the metaphysical need not coexist in the same sentence.”
“You have always maintained that from a position of considerable comfort,” Allende said, and her voice was not unkind, but it was exact.
He received this. He turned his coffee cup again. “Perhaps. But consider: if the town is political, the cooking is political, the ghosts are political — where does the mystery live? Everything becomes allegory. Allegory is the enemy of wonder. When the ghost stands for the disappeared, the ghost stops being a ghost.”
“Unless the ghost IS one of the disappeared,” Allende said. “Then the ghost is both literal and political and it doesn’t have to choose.”
I was writing furiously. This was the tension I needed: Borges pulling toward the metaphysical, Allende insisting the metaphysical is always rooted in the material, in bodies, in the specific history of a specific place. The story would need to hold both.
“What about the daughter — Nilda’s mother?” I said. “We have the grandmother Consuelo and the granddaughter Nilda. Where is the generation between them?”
The question landed differently than I expected. Allende’s face changed — not exactly closing, but shifting into a register I hadn’t seen yet. Graver.
“The missing generation,” she said. “Yes. There is always a missing generation. The one that left, or was taken, or broke with the tradition so completely that the grandmother had to skip them and pour everything into the grandchild instead.”
“Nilda’s mother could be the one who rejected the kitchen,” I said. “Who left Cruces for the city, who refused to learn the recipes, who—”
“Who is alive,” Borges said quietly. “And therefore more absent than the dead.”
We all sat with that. It was one of those moments the meeting template warns about — where everyone agrees and the agreement feels like a discovery rather than a conclusion. Nilda’s mother, alive somewhere, refusing to cook, refusing the inheritance of sazón, and therefore making Nilda the vessel for something that should have passed through a generation it skipped.
“The living are harder to forgive than the dead,” Allende said. “Consuelo, dead in her kitchen, still stirring — that is love. Nilda’s mother, alive in Santiago or Buenos Aires, eating from restaurants, refusing to touch a wooden spoon — that is the wound.”
“What about the town?” I asked. “Pedro Paramo has this quality — the town itself is a character. Comala is not a backdrop. It is a condition. The living and the dead share it, and you can’t always tell which is which.”
“Cruces should be like that,” Allende said, without hesitation. “A town where the dead have not left because they did not finish what they were doing. My grandfather — not the real one, the one I wrote — he stayed after death because the house needed him. It was not a haunting. It was an obligation.”
“The dead as tenants,” Borges offered. “They have not been evicted. They simply haven’t noticed the lease expired.”
“That’s closer to Rulfo than you think,” I said. “In Pedro Paramo, the dead don’t know they’re dead, or they know but it doesn’t change anything. They still murmur. They still want.”
“They still cook,” Allende added. “If our Consuelo is dead and still cooking, it is not because she is a ghost in the Gothic sense — rattling chains, seeking revenge. She is a ghost in the Latin American sense. She has work to do. The mole is not finished.”
Borges raised one finger. “But here is where I must insist on my contribution, or you will drown this story in sauce and feeling. There must be a structure. A pattern the granddaughter discovers. Perhaps the recipes are not random — perhaps they form a sequence, and the sequence is a kind of code, and the code, when read correctly, reveals something about the family that was hidden.”
“A secret recipe,” I said, and regretted it immediately.
Borges looked at me with the patience of a man who has been disappointed by language for eighty years. “Not a secret recipe. A recipe that is a secret. There is a difference. The recipe itself is mundane — anyone can follow it. But the ORDER in which the recipes are cooked, the pattern across days or weeks or generations — that contains information. A map. A confession. A theorem.”
“A theorem,” Allende repeated, and her tone was not dismissive. She was tasting the word.
“What if Consuelo’s recipes, the ones she left behind, are in a particular order?” I said, the idea forming as I spoke. “And Nilda discovers that the order corresponds to something — the births in the family, or the deaths, or the political events of the region. Each dish is a date. Each ingredient is a name.”
“Too neat,” Allende said immediately. “If the code is solvable, the story dies the moment she solves it. You need the cooking to resist interpretation even as it demands it.”
Borges nodded — an actual nod, which startled me. “Isabel is right. The labyrinth that can be solved is just a corridor. The recipes must suggest a pattern that is almost legible. The granddaughter must believe she is close to understanding, and the reader must believe it too, and then the understanding must not arrive. Or arrive in a form that does not satisfy.”
“The mole is the mole,” Allende said. “Sometimes the dead woman is just cooking because she loves to cook. And sometimes the love is the labyrinth.”
Borges was quiet for a long time — long enough that the waiter came and asked if we wanted anything else, and Allende ordered a glass of red wine without consulting anyone, and I asked for water because my throat was dry from talking so much while they talked so precisely.
“I keep thinking about the physical effect,” I said, when the silence had lasted long enough to be useful but not so long as to become a wall. “In Like Water for Chocolate, the emotions of the cook literally transfer to the people who eat. The wedding cake makes everyone weep. The quail in rose petals makes everyone desire. What if Consuelo’s cooking does something similar — not to the living who eat it, but to the kitchen itself? The walls absorb it. The ceiling absorbs it. Forty years of grief and joy and anger cooked into cast iron and tile. And when Nilda returns, the kitchen gives it back.”
“The kitchen weeps,” Allende said.
“The kitchen sweats,” I corrected, not sure why the distinction mattered but certain that it did. “Condensation that isn’t condensation. Grease that appears on surfaces that haven’t been near a stove. The house leaking emotion the way old pipes leak water.”
“Better,” Borges said. “The uncanny should wear domestic clothing. A wall that sweats is more disturbing than a ghost that walks. It cannot be dismissed. It cannot be addressed. You cannot speak to a wall. You can only wipe it and watch it sweat again.”
Allende tasted her wine. “And the body? Nilda’s body — what happens to her body when she starts cooking the old recipes?”
“Her hands remember before she does,” I said. “The muscle memory is older than her conscious memory. She reaches for the cumin before she knows she needs it. She adjusts the flame by sound — the particular hiss of the oil at the right temperature — without knowing how she learned to listen for it.”
“That is good,” Allende said. “That is true. I have watched women cook who could not read their own recipes. Their hands were literate in a language their eyes had never learned.”
We sat with that for a moment. The cumbia on the radio had given way to something slower, a bolero I half-recognized, and the light through the window was changing from afternoon gold to something grayer, as if the cafe itself were aging.
“I am worried,” I said, “about the ending.”
“You should be,” Borges said. “Endings are the only dishonest part of fiction. Life does not end. It is interrupted.”
“The ending should be a meal,” Allende said. “Nilda cooks. She sits. She eats. Whether the dead are with her at the table or not — that is the question you leave open.”
“Does she taste Consuelo in the food?” I asked.
“She tastes something. Whether it is Consuelo or herself or the town or just the cumin — that is where the story lives. In the not-knowing.”
Borges lifted his coffee for the first time. It must have been cold by then. He drank it anyway, a small sip, his face betraying nothing.
“There is a word,” he said. “Sazón. Every cook has a sazón — the particular quality of their hand, their seasoning, their way. It cannot be taught. It cannot be replicated. When the cook dies, the sazón dies. Unless — and this is the story, I think — unless the sazón is not in the cook but in the kitchen. In the walls. In the iron of the pan and the memory of the burner and the oil that has soaked into the wood over forty years.”
“The sazón as a ghost,” I said.
“The sazón as a form of infinity,” Borges said. “Every meal containing every previous meal. An infinite series converging on a single flavor.”
“The sazón as a grandmother’s hand on yours,” Allende said, “pressing your fingers around the wooden spoon until you learn the pressure. And then you carry that pressure in your hand for the rest of your life. And when you die, your granddaughter inherits the pressure. Not the recipe. The pressure.”
“I want to write this story,” I said, and I meant it with a sincerity that embarrassed me.
“Then you must choose,” Borges said, standing, retrieving his unnecessary cane. “Is the kitchen a puzzle or a prayer? Because it cannot be both.”
Allende gathered her scarf, wrapping it around her shoulders with the practiced elegance of a woman who has dressed for many departures. “Of course it can be both,” she said. “That is what kitchens are. Jorge, you would know this if you had ever cooked.”
“I have cooked,” Borges said, with dignity. “Once. An egg. It was a philosophical experience.”
“An egg,” Allende said. She was already walking toward the door. “He boiled an egg and calls it philosophy.”
“It was poached,” Borges corrected, to her back, to the closing door, to no one. He turned to me. “The egg was poached. There is a difference.”
I closed my notebook. The radio was playing something I couldn’t identify — not cumbia, not bolero, something older, something that might have been a lullaby or a funeral hymn or both. The man at the next table had left while I wasn’t looking. His coffee cup was still there, steaming, as if he had just set it down, or had never been there at all.