Refraction, or: What Orlando Knew About Skin

A discussion between Talia Hibbert and Virginia Woolf


We met in a bookshop this time, not a café. Talia’s idea. She said she worked better surrounded by spines than by foam art, and Virginia had sent a note — an actual handwritten note, which arrived by means I did not investigate — saying that she preferred “a room with the possibility of silence.” The shop was in Bloomsbury, small enough to hear the radiator ticking, with that particular smell of foxed pages and furniture polish that makes you feel like you’ve been forgiven for something.

Virginia was in the poetry section, reading Rilke. She did not look up when I came in.

“I’ve been thinking about Orlando,” she said, still not looking up, “and I’ve decided that I wrote it wrong.”

This was not what I expected.

“The conceit is time,” she continued, turning a page she was clearly not reading. “Orlando lives for centuries. Orlando changes sex. The reader marvels at the sweep, the grandeur, the fluidity of it all. But the truth is that I wrote it as a love letter to Vita, and the part I got wrong was the body. I was so concerned with the body as a costume — put on, taken off, altered by epoch — that I neglected the body as the thing that stays. The hand that holds the pen is the same hand regardless of the century. I was afraid of that hand.”

Talia arrived carrying two takeaway coffees. She handed one to me, kept the other, and said, “You weren’t afraid of the hand. You were afraid of what the hand wanted.”

Virginia closed the Rilke. “Perhaps.”

“Not perhaps. Definitely. Orlando changes sex and the prose barely flinches. Orlando desires someone and suddenly the sentences get longer, as if you needed more syntax to contain the wanting. That’s fear. Elegant fear, but fear.”

“I would call it reverence.”

“You would.” Talia sat on a stack of unsorted hardbacks, which creaked but held. “Reverence is fear in a nicer outfit.”

I had come with notes. I had typed them on my phone the night before, a list of themes and tensions I thought the story needed to address: chronic pain and erotic possibility, gender as a practice rather than a state, the specificity of desire versus its universality, Hibbert’s warmth meeting Woolf’s luminosity. Looking at the two of them — Talia balanced on her precarious stack, Virginia standing with the Rilke pressed against her chest like a shield — I understood that my notes were useless. The conversation would go where they took it, and I would run behind, trying to catch whatever fell.

“The premise,” I said. “Can I at least state the premise?”

“You can state it,” Virginia said. “We may disagree with it.”

“A woman with chronic pain falls in love with someone who experiences sensation differently. Desire as something fluid. Gender as something fluid. The body as a country worth learning.”

“Countries have borders,” Talia said immediately. “If you make the body a country, you’re saying it can be mapped, surveyed, conquered. The whole colonial metaphor. I don’t want that.”

“Neither do I. I meant —”

“You meant a country the way Virginia means a country. Woolf-country. Where the landscape keeps shifting and you’re never sure if you’re the traveler or the terrain. But that’s not how bodies work, especially bodies in pain. A body in pain has very clear borders. This is where it hurts. This is where it doesn’t. The borders are real. The borders are the point.”

Virginia had moved to the fiction section and was running her finger along spines. “And yet the borders move. You said so yourself once — the pain migrates. Monday’s shoulder becomes Thursday’s wrist. The body is not a country with fixed boundaries. It is a country in a state of continuous cartographic revision.”

“Fine,” Talia said. “But revision implies someone is doing the revising. There’s an editor. A body with chronic pain doesn’t have an editor. It just happens. You wake up and the geography is different and nobody consulted you.”

“And that,” Virginia said, pulling a book from the shelf — I couldn’t see which one — “is precisely the condition of Orlando. To wake and find the geography different. To be, suddenly, in a body that the world reads differently, even though the interior self has not changed. The disjunction between how you are seen and how you feel.”

I said, “Is that what the story is about? That disjunction?”

Talia shook her head. “The story is about sex. The story is about two people figuring out how to have sex that is honest about what their bodies actually do, rather than what bodies are supposed to do. And sex is not a disjunction. Sex is the opposite of a disjunction. It’s the thing where, for however long it lasts, what you feel and what you are and what you want are all the same thing.”

“Unless it isn’t,” Virginia said. “Unless you dissociate. Unless you leave. Unless, during the act itself, you find yourself watching from a great distance, as though you are a kite and someone has cut the string.”

The silence after that was different from the other silences. Talia set down her coffee.

“That’s in the story,” she said quietly. “That has to be in the story. Not as trauma. Not as dysfunction. Just as a thing that happens. You’re with someone and you’re present and then you’re not, and the person you’re with has to decide whether to wait for you to come back or to keep going, and neither choice is the right one.”

“Both choices are the right one,” Virginia said. “Depending on the day.”

I wrote this down: dissociation during sex — not pathology, not metaphor, just weather. Then I crossed out “weather” because Virginia would have said “weather” and I was trying to find my own language for it.

“What does Chloe Brown give us here?” I asked. “The bucket list — the reclaiming of pleasure. How does that speak to this?”

Talia leaned back, and the hardback stack tilted alarmingly but stabilized. “Chloe’s bucket list is about permission. She’s spent years being careful with her body — managing it, negotiating with it, treating it like a fragile thing. The list is her saying: this body gets to want things. Not despite the fibromyalgia. Not in defiance of the fibromyalgia. Just — this body, the one I actually have, gets to go camping and ride a motorcycle and have wild sex. The revolution isn’t overcoming the limitations. The revolution is wanting things while limited.”

“So the character in our story —”

“Wants things. Specifically. Not vaguely. Not in a luminous Woolfian way where desire diffuses into the atmosphere. She wants a specific mouth on a specific part of her body and she wants it on Thursday at nine o’clock and she doesn’t want it to mean anything about the nature of selfhood. She wants it to mean: that felt good. Do it again.”

Virginia was quiet. She had opened the book she’d pulled from the shelf and was examining something — a frontispiece, an inscription. When she spoke, her voice had that quality it gets when she is preparing to say something she has been thinking about for a long time.

“You are right that specificity matters. But I want to push back on the idea that desire can be excised from meaning. Not metaphysical meaning. Not ‘what does this say about the human condition.’ But the meaning that accrues in the body itself. When someone touches you, and you have been in pain for a long time, and the touch does not fix the pain but exists alongside it — that is not a meaningless sensation. It is a sensation that means: I am not only this. I am also this. The body speaks in conjunctions. And. And. And.”

“Orlando speaks in conjunctions too,” I said, seeing the connection. “The whole book is ‘and’ — man and woman, sixteenth century and twentieth, lover and beloved. Never either/or.”

“Yes.” Virginia closed the book. “And that is what I got wrong, as I said at the beginning. I wrote Orlando as a fantastical thing — a person who lives for centuries, who changes sex as others change clothes. But the truth, the ordinary truth, is that we all do this. Every body is prismatic. We refract. The light enters and exits differently depending on the angle, and the angle changes with time, with pain, with desire, with the particular Tuesday.”

Talia was staring at her. “Did you just use the title?”

“What title?”

“Prismatic. We’re calling the story ‘Prismatic.’ And you just said every body is prismatic.”

“I did not know the title. I arrived at the word independently.” She paused. “Though that does suggest the word is correct.”

Talia laughed, the real kind, not the polite kind. “All right. I want to talk about the partner. The person who experiences sensation differently. Because there’s a trap here and I want to name it.”

“Name it.”

“The trap is making the partner a mirror. Chronic-pain protagonist, sensory-different partner — the symmetry is seductive. Each one has a body that doesn’t behave. They find each other and their broken pieces fit together like a puzzle. That’s garbage. That’s the Hallmark version. Real people with different bodies don’t fit together. They collide. They have to invent entirely new ways of touching that don’t exist in any manual, because no manual was written for this particular pair of nervous systems.”

“I agree,” Virginia said. “The partner should not be a mirror. The partner should be —” She searched for the word, and I watched her search, and it was like watching someone rummage through an enormous wardrobe looking for a specific glove.

“Opaque,” she said finally. “The partner should be opaque. Legible in some ways, completely unreadable in others. Because that is what it means to love someone: to stand before a person and understand that you will never fully understand them, and to find that not-knowing bearable. Even beautiful.”

“Bearable is better than beautiful,” Talia said. “Don’t give me beautiful. Give me: I don’t understand why this touch makes you flinch and that one makes you sigh, and I’m going to learn the difference, not because I understand your body but because I want to keep touching you.”

“The wanting to keep touching,” I said. “That’s the engine of the whole thing, isn’t it? Not understanding. Not even compatibility. Just: I will learn this, because I want to stay.”

Neither of them answered right away. Virginia walked to the window. Outside, Bloomsbury was doing what Bloomsbury does in the late afternoon — the light going amber through the plane trees, students walking with their collars up, a bus turning a corner with that particular hydraulic groan.

“There is a question we haven’t addressed,” Virginia said. “About gender. About the fluidity the brief mentions. I need to know if you are serious about it.”

“Serious how?”

“Fluidity is not an accessory. It is not a characteristic you assign to a character the way you might assign them brown hair or a fear of heights. If the character’s gender is fluid, then the prose itself must be fluid. The pronouns must shimmer. The body described in one scene must be described differently in the next — not because it has changed, but because the person inhabiting it is attending to different aspects of it. This is not a matter of representation, though representation matters. It is a matter of form. The form must answer the content.”

“I agree with all of that,” Talia said, “and I also need you to know that if the prose ‘shimmers’ too much, the reader won’t know who’s touching whom. Clarity. We need clarity. Even in a scene about fluidity, the reader needs to know whose hand is where.”

“The reader’s need for clarity is not my primary concern.”

“It’s mine. I’m a romance writer. My reader has to be in the room. If they’re lost in the shimmer, they’ve left the bed, and once they’ve left the bed, they’re not coming back.”

Virginia turned from the window. “Then we are at an impasse. Because I believe the shimmer — the uncertainty, the dissolving of fixed identity — is what makes the eroticism possible. And you believe the shimmer destroys the eroticism.”

“I believe the shimmer needs an anchor. You can dissolve identity all you want, but you need one concrete thing — a freckle, a scar, the sound someone makes when they’re surprised by pleasure — to tether the reader to the physical. One specific, undissolvable thing.”

“A freckle.”

“A freckle. A birthmark. The way her knee sounds when she bends it wrong. Something the shimmer can’t absorb.”

I thought about this for a long time — longer than was comfortable, while both of them watched me, or didn’t watch me, or watched the room instead. The radiator ticked. A customer came in, browsed the travel section, and left without buying anything.

“What if the freckle changes meaning?” I said. “Not the freckle itself — it stays. It’s on her collarbone, let’s say. But what the freckle means to the person touching it changes. In one scene, the freckle is a landmark — I know where I am because here’s the freckle. In another scene, it’s a question — why do I keep coming back to this one spot? And in a third scene, it’s nothing. It’s just skin. It has stopped being remarkable. And that’s the most erotic moment in the whole story — the moment when the specific detail stops being a detail and becomes just: her. The woman I’m touching. Not a body to be read. Just a person to be near.”

Talia was smiling in a way that meant she was about to disagree. “That last bit is sentimental.”

“How?”

“Because you’ve made the erasure of specificity into the romantic climax. You’ve said: the highest form of love is when you stop seeing the details. But that’s not right. The highest form of love — the best sex, the sex you remember — is when you see more details, not fewer. When you notice the freckle and the scar and the way her left eyelid twitches when she’s close, and you hold all of it at once, and none of it cancels out any of the rest.”

“That is not incompatible with what the narrator proposed,” Virginia said. “The narrator said the freckle stops being remarkable. You say the lover sees more details. Both can be true. The freckle is unremarkable not because it has been forgotten but because it has been integrated. It has become part of the grammar of this particular body. You do not remark upon grammar. You speak it.”

Talia opened her mouth to respond. Then she closed it. Then she opened it again.

“Damn it. That’s right. I hate that that’s right.”

“It is right,” Virginia confirmed, with only a little satisfaction.

“But — and I’m going to die on this hill — the reader has to feel the integration happening. It can’t start integrated. The prose has to start with the freckle as a discovery and end with the freckle as grammar, and the reader has to feel the distance traveled between those two states, and the distance traveled is the love story.”

“The distance traveled is the love story,” I repeated, and I felt something lock into place, not the whole thing, not the architecture, but a single load-bearing beam.

Virginia had picked up the Rilke again. She read aloud, in German, something I didn’t understand. Then she translated: “‘For one human being to love another: that is perhaps the most difficult of all our tasks.’ Rilke was wrong about many things, but not that.”

“He was wrong about the ‘perhaps,’” Talia said. “There’s no perhaps about it.”

I wanted to ask about the structure — how the refraction would work technically, whether we needed multiple timelines or whether a single sustained encounter could hold the weight of everything they’d been discussing. But Virginia was reading Rilke again, this time silently, and Talia was looking at something on her phone with an expression that suggested she’d received either very good news or very bad news and was still deciding which. The bookshop owner was turning off the lights in the back room, section by section, so the shop was gradually losing its depth, the far corners dissolving into shadow while the front window held the last of the Bloomsbury amber.

I thought about the word “prismatic” and how a prism doesn’t add color. It reveals color that was already there. The white light enters whole and exits