Digging Down to Where It Started

A discussion between Derek Raymond and Chester Himes


The pub was in Greenock, on a street that ran down to the water at an angle steep enough to feel deliberate, as though the town itself were trying to slide into the Clyde. It was called The Customs House, which it wasn’t — the actual customs house was two blocks over and had been converted into flats — but the name stuck because nobody in Greenock corrects a lie that sounds more interesting than the truth. Inside, the carpet was the color of dried blood, the ceiling tiles were stained in topographical patterns from decades of condensation, and the television behind the bar was showing horse racing with the sound off. A Tuesday at half-two. Three pensioners at a corner table. A barmaid reading a paperback propped against the lager taps. The Firth of Clyde through the window, grey and flat and smelling of industry that was no longer there.

Raymond had arrived first. He was sitting beneath a framed photograph of a shipyard that no longer existed, drinking something amber from a glass he held at the base, not the rim, like a man who’d once had a drink knocked from his hand and never forgot the lesson. He was wearing a suit that had been good once — the stitching still precise even where the fabric had gone — and he looked at the room the way he looked at most rooms: as though it confirmed something he already knew and wished he didn’t.

I’d suggested Scotland. I said it was about the setting, the tartan noir tradition, the Clyde. But really I’d chosen it because I thought neutral ground might matter. These two — Raymond and Himes — weren’t obvious collaborators. They came from different continents, different centuries of the same wound. What they shared was a refusal to let crime fiction be comfortable. What they didn’t share, I suspected, was nearly everything else.

Himes came in ten minutes after me. He didn’t apologize. He stood in the doorway and took in the room — the carpet, the pensioners, the silent horses on the screen — with an expression that was hard to read and easy to misread, the look of a man cataloguing a place he’d already decided something about. He ordered a whisky, didn’t ask what kind, sat down across from Raymond, and said: “So this is where the working class went to die.”

“Still going,” Raymond said. “The dying takes longer than the working ever did.”

Himes almost smiled. Not quite. The muscles moved but the eyes stayed where they were. He picked up his glass. “I know towns like this. Different river. Same story. The factory shuts and the bars stay open and everyone acts like that’s not the point.”

I opened my notebook. I’d prepared notes — themes, structural questions, the reverse chronology problem — but I could already feel that preparation was the wrong posture for this room. These were not men who respected agendas.

“The story moves backward,” I said. “That’s the constraint. We start with the body and end with the arrival. A migrant worker dead at a peat plant. A police sergeant investigating. The investigation isn’t about finding who killed him — it’s about discovering who allowed him to die. And the reverse chronology makes the reader complicit, because by the time we reach the beginning, we know the ending, and knowing the ending is exactly the kind of knowledge the town spent months refusing to have.”

Raymond leaned back. The chair creaked in a way that sounded structural. “The body in the peat. That’s good. Peat preserves things. Holds them in place. The ground itself becomes a kind of testimony — it keeps what people want to forget.”

“And the detective?”

“A sergeant. Not a detective inspector. Not someone with authority. Someone who takes orders. Someone in the middle of the machine.”

Himes set his glass down. “Why a sergeant?”

“Because a sergeant is close enough to the ground to see what’s happening and high enough in the chain that his not-seeing is a choice. A constable can be ignorant. An inspector can be corrupt. A sergeant is complicit. That’s a different moral position.”

Himes looked at me steadily. “I’ll tell you what complicit means. Complicit means the system worked the way it was designed. Not broken. Not failed. Operational. Your sergeant didn’t look the other way — looking the other way would require him to have been looking in the right direction first. He was looking where he was trained to look. The dead man was never in his field of vision.”

“That’s the investigation,” I said. “The reverse chronology peels back the layers. Each step backward reveals another moment where someone could have seen what was happening and didn’t. Not because they were cruel, but because the town had built a way of not-seeing.”

Raymond was shaking his head, not in disagreement but in that particular motion that means a thought is arriving. “You’re being too sociological. A way of not-seeing — that’s a sentence from a newspaper. What you need is to put me inside the sergeant’s body. I need to feel his hands on the wheel when he drives past the plant. I need to smell the peat on his clothes. You don’t write about institutional failure. You write about a man who comes home and can’t eat his dinner and doesn’t know why.”

“Or knows exactly why,” Himes said, “and eats it anyway.”

The silence after that was the kind of silence that reorganizes a room. Raymond looked at Himes the way you look at someone who’s just said something you’ve been trying to say for thirty years in a language you didn’t have.

“Yes,” Raymond said. “He eats it anyway. That’s the difference between guilt and complicity. Guilt stops you from eating. Complicity seasons the food.”

I was writing fast, the kind of writing where you’re not forming letters so much as recording a frequency. “So the sergeant knows. At some level, from the beginning, he knows about the conditions at the plant. The migrant workers. The hours, the safety, the housing.”

“Everyone knows,” Himes said. “That’s the thing you have to get right. Everyone in the town knows. The woman at the post office knows. The man who runs the chip shop knows. The children know, because children hear everything and understand it differently. In Harlem — in the Harlem I wrote about — everyone knew the police were corrupt. Everyone knew the numbers racket was rigged. Everyone knew which landlord was letting the rats breed. Knowledge wasn’t the problem. Knowledge was the medium they swam in. What nobody had was the power to make the knowledge matter. Or — and this is the thing — the belief that it should.”

“Scotland’s different,” I said, and immediately wished I hadn’t.

“Is it?” Himes looked at me with an expression that wasn’t hostile but wasn’t patient. “Every country that tells itself a story about being a victim of its neighbor’s empire has a blind spot the size of a human body. Scotland was colonized, sure. Scotland was also a colonizer. The ports your ships left from — right here, this water outside the window — they went to Africa. They went to the Caribbean. And now a man from — where is your dead man from?”

“I haven’t decided.”

“Decide.”

“Eastern Europe. Romania, maybe. Or farther. Somewhere the agencies recruit from because the labor is cheap and the paperwork is slow.”

“So a man comes from the edge of Europe to work in a peat plant in a Scottish port town, and the town takes his labor and refuses his presence. That’s not a Scottish story. That’s every story. But you’ve set it in Scotland, so you need to deal with Scotland’s particular version of the lie. The lie that says: we know about suffering, because we suffered. And because we suffered, we can’t be the ones doing it.”

Raymond was watching Himes with something that looked like recognition. Not agreement — recognition. The acknowledgment that someone is describing a territory you’ve also been to, even if you arrived from a different direction.

“In England,” Raymond said, “the lie is simpler. The lie is: it’s not happening. In England, the dead factory worker is an anomaly, a failure in the system, a case for the coroner. The system itself is sound. What you’re describing — Scotland knowing about suffering and using that knowledge as a shield — that’s worse. That’s more interesting. Because it means the suffering isn’t hidden. It’s displayed. It’s curated. And behind the display, the same machinery runs.”

“The peat plant,” I said, trying to pull us back toward the story, the body, the ground. “The plant is real — or real enough. These operations exist on the edges of Scottish towns. They pull peat from the ground for horticulture, for fuel, for export. It’s ancient work done by modern labor. The men who work there are often migrants because the work is low-paid, physical, seasonal. The plant operates in a legal grey zone — technically compliant, practically exploitative. The kind of place that passes inspection because the inspector knows the owner and the owner knows the council.”

“And the body,” Raymond said.

“Found in the peat. In the cutting face. The initial assumption is an accident — he fell, he was covered, the machinery continued. The sergeant is assigned. And this is where the reverse chronology begins. We open at the body. We end at the arrival — the dead man stepping off a bus, or out of a van, into this town for the first time, alive, with a bag and a name and a plan.”

Himes finished his whisky. He didn’t signal for another. “The reverse chronology. You said it’s about moral archaeology. Digging down. I want to push on that. Because there’s a danger in working backward, which is that it flatters the reader. The reader thinks: I’m uncovering the truth. I’m doing the detective’s work. I’m the one who sees. But the whole point of this story is that seeing doesn’t help. Everyone sees. Seeing is cheap. What they don’t do is act. So the structure has to work against the reader’s satisfaction. Each step backward should make them more uncomfortable, not more enlightened. They should arrive at the beginning feeling sick, not smart.”

I put my pen down. “How do you do that?”

“You make them like the town. Not the sergeant — the town. The pub, the chip shop, the woman hanging washing. You make the town feel like home. And then you make the reader realize that home is the place where a man can die and the washing still gets hung. That’s what backward does — it doesn’t reveal a crime. It reveals a life. The dead man’s life. And by the time you reach his first day, you’ve spent so many pages in his skin that his death — which you already know about, which opened the story — lands differently. It lands not as a mystery solved but as a life erased.”

Raymond was looking at the table. His fingers were moving on the glass, not drumming, just moving, the way fingers move when the mind is somewhere the body hasn’t followed.

“There’s something you’re both missing,” he said.

We waited.

“The sergeant. You’ve talked about his complicity, his knowledge, his position in the machine. But you haven’t talked about his body. What does investigating this man’s death do to the sergeant physically? Does he sleep? Does he drink more? Does his back seize up, does he get a rash, does he stop being able to look at raw meat? The body knows before the mind does. The body is always ahead. Your sergeant should be falling apart physically before he admits anything to himself. The story isn’t in the case file. It’s in the paracetamol he takes at four in the morning, standing in the kitchen in his pants, looking at the fridge light.”

“Both of you keep coming back to the body,” I said. “The dead man’s body in the peat. The sergeant’s body breaking down. The body of the town — its shops, its streets, its waterfront that used to build ships and now builds nothing.”

Himes looked at me sharply. “Don’t do that.”

“Do what?”

“That. The synthesizing. The finding of the pattern. You just took three different things — a corpse, a man’s insomnia, and economic decline — and made them into a metaphor. A body triptych. Very literary. Very neat. But the dead man in the peat is not a metaphor. He’s a man who died because the safety rail was rotten and his supervisor was cutting costs and the health inspector hadn’t visited in nine months because the council cut funding. That’s not a metaphor. That’s a series of decisions made by specific people for specific reasons, and if you turn it into a symbol you let every one of those people off the hook.”

I felt my face warm. He was right. I’d been reaching for elegance and missed the floor.

“Keep it ugly,” Raymond said. “That’s the only rule I’ve ever trusted. Whenever the prose starts to sound good, you’re lying. The sentence that scans perfectly, the image that lands like a photograph — those are the moments you’re performing and the character has stopped being real. The sergeant standing in his kitchen at four in the morning — that’s ugly. That’s a man in his underwear with a headache. It doesn’t scan. It isn’t beautiful. It’s true.”

“But the prose can’t be incompetent either,” Himes said. “Ugly doesn’t mean artless. There’s craft in making something feel ragged. The sentences should have a kind of — not elegance, what’s the word — precision. Precise and unbeautiful. Like a coroner’s report that somehow breaks your heart.”

Raymond looked at Himes, and this time something shifted between them. Not warmth. Not friendship. Something more useful: the acknowledgment that they were, despite everything, talking about the same thing.

“The dead man’s name,” Himes said.

“What about it?”

“Give him a name that the town can’t pronounce. That they get wrong. That they shorten. That tells you everything about how they see him — which is to say, how they don’t. A name that starts as his identity and becomes a label and then becomes a case number and then becomes a body in the peat. The reverse chronology gives his name back. The story starts with ‘the deceased’ and ends with his mother calling him in for dinner.”

Raymond was quiet for a long time. Long enough that the barmaid turned a page. Long enough that one of the pensioners coughed and the cough became a silence that was louder than the cough.

“I don’t think it ends with the mother,” he said finally. “I think it ends with him standing on a pavement somewhere — not Scotland, not yet — looking at a map or a phone or whatever people look at now, and choosing. He chooses to go. He has a reason. Money, probably. A cousin who said there was work. A plan. And the reader knows the plan is going to kill him, and he doesn’t, and there is nothing — nothing in all of fiction — more terrible than watching someone make a reasonable decision that you know will destroy them.”

Himes picked up his glass, found it empty, and set it down again. “I’d end it earlier. Before the decision. I’d end it with him not yet knowing the town exists. Standing on a street in his own city, in his own country, living his own life, and Scotland is just a word on a map he’s never looked at carefully. The town where he’ll die hasn’t entered his imagination yet. It’s still just geography.”

Raymond shook his head. “That’s too gentle.”

“It’s the most violent thing in the story. A man alive and whole and not yet caught in the machine. That’s what the machine destroys — not the body. The body is just evidence. What the machine destroys is the time before. The ordinary morning. The cup of coffee in a kitchen where nobody is going to die.”

I closed my notebook because I’d stopped writing five minutes ago. The three of us sat with that — with Himes’s kitchen and Raymond’s pavement and the dead man’s name that the town couldn’t pronounce — while outside the window the Clyde moved toward the sea with the patience of something that has carried worse than this and will carry worse again.