The Congregational Voice and the Thing Beneath It
A discussion between Jim Thompson and Flannery O'Connor
We met in Inverness, which neither of them had chosen. I had chosen it because it was the farthest point north I could get them both to agree on, and because I thought the distance from anywhere familiar might shake something loose. Thompson had wanted Edinburgh — he said Edinburgh had the right kind of civic rot, the kind where the corruption wears a nice suit and buys you a drink. O’Connor had wanted somewhere rural, somewhere with a church visible from the meeting place, and when I pointed out that in the Scottish Highlands you can see a church from nearly anywhere she said, “Then the Highlands will do.”
The hotel bar was on the river, the Ness, which moved past the windows with a dark patience that made you think of things being carried away. The carpet was tartan, of course. Everything was tartan. Thompson had picked up a tourist pamphlet in the lobby and was reading from it with the bright, helpful voice of a man explaining local customs to a visitor — the history of the clans, the battle of Culloden, the meaning of the different plaids — and the voice was so cheerful and so precise that you could almost forget he was mocking every word of it. Almost.
“Listen to this,” he said. “‘The Highlander was known for his fierce loyalty to kin and his unyielding sense of honor.’ Now isn’t that something. Fierce loyalty. Unyielding honor. Those are the same words they used about Lou Ford, except they used them at his funeral.”
O’Connor was sitting very straight in a chair that wasn’t designed for sitting straight in — one of those upholstered lounge chairs that tries to swallow you. She had refused it by simply not leaning back. She had a glass of water she hadn’t touched. She was wearing a grey cardigan buttoned to the throat, and she looked at Thompson the way she looked at most people, which was with the attention of someone cataloguing evidence for a trial that had already been decided.
“Lou Ford isn’t the model,” she said.
“Lou Ford is always the model.”
“Lou Ford is an American. Lou Ford operates inside the particular machinery of small-town American respectability — the deputy, the handshake, the church social. He is monstrous because the gap between what he says and what he does is an American gap. It runs on American fuel: the performance of neighborliness, the civic grin. You transplant that to Scotland and it doesn’t work. The grin is wrong.”
Thompson set down the pamphlet. He wasn’t grinning now, which was unusual. He looked interested, which was more dangerous.
“Why is the grin wrong?”
“Because the Scottish don’t grin. Not the way Americans grin. The American grin is a mask that says I am your friend. The Scottish equivalent is something else entirely — it’s a tone. A congregational tone. The voice you use to speak in a community where everyone knows your business and the primary social skill is managing what you say about what everyone already knows.”
I wrote that down. I wrote it down because I could feel the story in it — a narrator who speaks in that congregational voice, the voice of shared knowledge, of managed disclosure, while underneath it something terrible is happening.
“The congregational voice,” I said. “That’s the first-person narration. Not Thompson’s American cheerfulness, but the Scottish version — the kirk elder, the community man, someone whose authority comes from being known. Being trusted. Being embedded.”
Thompson leaned forward. “Now you’re talking. The insider. The man who belongs. In The Killer Inside Me, Lou Ford belongs to Central City the way a foundation belongs to a house. You can’t remove him without the whole thing coming down. That’s the horror — not that there’s a monster among us, but that the monster is structural. He’s load-bearing.”
“And in a Scottish community,” I said, “the belonging is different. It’s older. It’s thicker. In an American small town, belonging is something you perform — you go to the right church, you shake the right hands, you show up at the right events. In a Scottish parish, belonging is something you inherit. It’s in the name. It’s in who your grandfather was and where he’s buried and which pew your family sits in.”
O’Connor set her water glass down with a precise click. “Which pew your family sits in. Yes. Now we’re talking about something real. Because the pew is not a metaphor. The pew is a physical location in a physical building where a man sits every Sunday and is seen sitting, and the being-seen is the whole architecture of his respectability. He doesn’t have to do anything. He just has to be there. And the community reads his presence the way they read scripture — as a text that confirms what they already believe.”
“That’s grace,” Thompson said, and the way he said it was a provocation, and he knew it.
“That is the opposite of grace. That is the condition that grace has to destroy.”
“Tell me about that. Tell me about destroying the condition.”
She didn’t answer immediately. She looked out the window at the river. A man was walking a dog on the opposite bank, and the dog was pulling toward the water and the man was pulling back, and this small contest of wills played out in silence across the glass.
“In ‘A Good Man Is Hard to Find,’” she said, “the grandmother’s moment of grace comes when she touches the Misfit. She reaches out and touches him. She says, ‘You’re one of my babies.’ And the Misfit shoots her. Now — everyone misreads that scene. Everyone thinks the shooting is the punishment for the grace, or the refusal of the grace. But the shooting is the response to the grace. The Misfit recognizes what has happened to him. He recognizes that for one second this terrible, self-deceiving old woman saw him clearly — not as the Misfit, not as the criminal, but as a person — and that seeing was so intolerable that he had to end it. Violence as a response to being seen. That’s what I’m interested in.”
Thompson was very still. This was the stillness I’d learned to watch for — not relaxation but the focused quiet of a man whose mind had just connected two things.
“Lou Ford,” he said. “Lou Ford’s whole performance — the cliches, the platitudes, the aw-shucks routine — that’s a man making sure he’s never seen. He’s standing in the middle of town in broad daylight being the most visible person in Central City and nobody sees him. Because what they see is the performance. They see the deputy. They see the nice young man. And the performance is so good, so seamless, that when it cracks — when the violence comes through — they can’t process it. They literally cannot see what’s in front of them.”
“So both of us are writing about visibility,” O’Connor said. “About the gap between what is seen and what is there.”
“Except in my version, the gap is the character’s strategy. Lou Ford cultivated his invisibility. He built it. It’s a weapon.”
“And in mine, the gap is the community’s strategy. The grandmother isn’t invisible because she’s performing. She’s invisible because she’s typical. She’s so perfectly average, so completely the thing the community expects, that she disappears into the type. Until the moment of grace.”
I said: “In Scotland, the gap would be collective. The congregational voice. The man I’m writing — he wouldn’t be hiding like Lou Ford. He wouldn’t be typical like the grandmother. He’d be known. Genuinely known. The community would know his name, his family, his habits, his moods. They’d know him the way a parish knows its people — in extraordinary detail. And they still wouldn’t see what he is.”
“Because seeing what he is would require them to see what they are,” O’Connor said.
The silence after that sentence rearranged the room. Thompson picked up the tourist pamphlet again, looked at it, set it down. The bartender was polishing a glass with the careful inattention of someone who has learned not to listen.
“The Misfit,” Thompson said. “Tell me more about the Misfit.”
“What about him?”
“His philosophy. The meaning-through-murder business. ‘If He did what He said, then it’s nothing for you to do but throw away everything and follow Him. And if He didn’t, then it’s nothing for you to do but enjoy the few minutes you got left the best way you can — by killing somebody or burning down his house or doing some other meanness to him.’ I’ve always liked that speech. It’s the most honest thing anyone says in the whole story.”
“It’s not honest. It’s a theology. A broken one, but a theology nonetheless. The Misfit isn’t being honest — he’s reasoning. He’s working out the logic of a world where grace might or might not exist, and he’s arrived at the only conclusion that logic can reach without faith, which is nihilism. But nihilism in the Misfit’s mouth isn’t the absence of meaning. It’s the demand for meaning. He wants meaning more than anyone in the story. That’s why he’s dangerous.”
“That’s your man,” Thompson said, and he was pointing at me. “That’s your Scottish narrator. Not the nihilist. The man who wants meaning more than anyone in the parish. The man who sits in the pew and listens harder than anyone else and believes more and the belief is what makes him — ”
“Monstrous,” O’Connor said.
“I was going to say sincere.”
“Same thing.”
Thompson laughed. It was a small, compressed sound, like a stone dropped into still water. “In my experience, the sincere ones are always worse. Lou Ford believed every cliche he spoke. That was the horror. It wasn’t a mask — it was a mask that had grown into the face. He couldn’t tell the difference anymore between what he was performing and what he was. And the violence wasn’t the real self breaking through the performance. The violence was the performance taken to its logical conclusion.”
“A family trip,” I said. “The source material — ‘A Good Man Is Hard to Find’ — it’s a family trip. Ordinary people in a car driving toward something they don’t know is coming. Petty arguments, minor annoyances, the children making noise, the grandmother insisting on a detour. And the detour is what kills them. Their own ordinary decisions lead them to the Misfit.”
“In Scotland,” O’Connor said, “the trip wouldn’t be a trip. It would be a gathering. A funeral, perhaps. A wedding. Something that brings the community together. Something that requires the congregational voice — the hymns, the readings, the handshakes at the door. And the man you’re writing would be at the center of it, because that’s where he belongs. He’d be the one who reads the lesson. The one who carries the coffin. The one everyone turns to.”
“And the violence,” I said.
“The violence is already there. It’s in the pew. It’s in the lesson he reads. It’s in the way he carries the coffin. You don’t have to stage it. You have to reveal that it was always present, and that the congregation — the community — knew, the way communities always know, and chose the voice that says it doesn’t.”
Thompson was turning his glass. Clockwise. A quarter turn. I remembered this gesture from other meetings, other rooms — the winding motion, the measured rotation. In Thompson it was a metronome. It kept the time of whatever was building underneath.
“The confession,” he said. “In The Killer Inside Me, Lou Ford is confessing to the reader. The whole book is a confession. But the confession is also a performance — he’s confessing in character, as the nice deputy, using the nice deputy’s voice, and the horror is that the confession doesn’t break the performance. The performance absorbs the confession. He can tell you he killed someone and it sounds like he’s telling you about fixing a fence.”
“In Scotland,” I said, “the confession would be — what? A testimony? A statement to the police? No. It would be the congregational voice itself. The story told to the reader as though the reader were a member of the parish. As though the reader were sitting in the pew. And the narrator speaks the way you speak to your own — with the assumption of shared values, shared understanding, shared complicity.”
O’Connor closed her eyes. Not in fatigue. In the way she closed them when she was seeing something that wasn’t in the room yet.
“The reader as congregation,” she said. “The reader in the pew. Hearing the lesson read by a man they trust, in a voice they recognize, and the lesson is a confession of murder, and the congregational voice doesn’t change. The tone holds. The warmth holds. The sincerity holds. And the reader has to decide whether to keep sitting in the pew.”
“They’ll keep sitting,” Thompson said. “They always do. That’s the thing about Lou Ford — the reader doesn’t stop reading. The reader is horrified and the reader keeps turning pages. And the keeping-turning is the reader’s complicity. You can’t read a confession without becoming part of the congregation that received it.”
“But the grandmother reaches out,” O’Connor said. “She touches the Misfit. There has to be a moment — not of redemption, not of salvation, but of sight. Someone has to see the narrator. Not the congregation-voice, not the kirk-elder, not the man in the pew. The actual thing underneath. And the seeing has to cost something.”
“It costs everything,” Thompson said. “In my stories, the person who sees the truth about the narrator dies. That’s the price of admission.”
“In mine too. But the death is the grace. The death is the moment of genuine contact between two people who have been performing at each other for the entire story. The grandmother touches the Misfit and for one second they are both real, and then the gun goes off. The gun goes off because reality is unbearable. Not for the Misfit — for the world. The world cannot hold two people being real at each other. Something has to break.”
I was writing so fast the pen was scoring the paper. The river outside had darkened as the afternoon shifted, and the far bank was losing its detail, the man and the dog long gone, just trees now, and the suggestion of hills behind the trees, and behind the hills the kind of Scottish sky that looks like it’s deciding something.
“Scotland,” I said. “The landscape. Thompson, you write small-town American squalor — the diners, the hotels, the roads that go nowhere. O’Connor, you write the rural South — the dirt roads, the farmhouses, the peacocks. How does any of this translate to a Scottish parish?”
“It translates because squalor is universal,” Thompson said. “The specifics change. Instead of a diner it’s a pub. Instead of a deputy it’s — what do they have? A councillor, a deacon, a schoolteacher. Someone who holds office in the community. Someone whose respectability is institutional.”
“The weather,” O’Connor said. “The weather does the work of the landscape. In the South, the heat is a moral condition — it presses on you, it makes everything slower and more oppressive, it rots things. In Scotland, it would be the cold. The damp. The way the cold gets into buildings and into bones and into the structure of daily life. The cold as a moral condition. Not dramatic — not blizzards and storms. Just the steady, grinding, daily cold that shapes everything: how people dress, how they move, how close they stand to each other, how much they drink.”
“How much they drink,” Thompson repeated. “That’s good. A community that drinks together. That congregates at the pub the way it congregates at the kirk. And the narrator is there, buying rounds, telling stories, being known. Being the congregational voice at the bar as well as the pew.”
“Two congregations,” I said. “The kirk and the pub. And the narrator is central to both. And the story he tells — the confession — moves between them, because in a Scottish parish they’re the same architecture. The same social contract. The same agreement about what is spoken and what is left in the silence between the hymn and the whisky.”
O’Connor opened her eyes. She looked at me with the flat, undramatic attention of a woman who has been told something she already knew and is deciding whether to be generous about it.
“Don’t make the kirk and the pub a parallel,” she said. “Don’t balance them. That’s a structural tic — the sacred and the profane, the Sunday and the Saturday, the two faces of the community. It’s too neat. The kirk and the pub should be the same thing. Not parallel. Identical. The same social function, the same voice, the same contract. The narrator doesn’t switch registers between them. He doesn’t become a different man. He’s the same man everywhere. That’s the horror.”
“Lou Ford was the same man everywhere,” Thompson said. “That’s what no one understood. They thought there were two Lou Fords — the deputy and the killer. There was one. One man. And the one man was doing both things with the same hands and the same smile and the same friendly, helpful, aw-shucks voice. The horror isn’t the duality. The horror is the unity.”
“The horror is the unity.” I wrote it down. I underlined it. I looked up at both of them — Thompson with his glass and his quiet, wound-spring stillness, O’Connor with her straight back and her untouched water and her eyes that missed nothing — and I understood that the story I was going to write had to hold one voice, one man, one register from beginning to end, and that the register had to be warm and recognizable and trustworthy, and that somewhere inside that warmth the reader would have to feel the temperature drop, not because the voice changed but because the reader finally heard what the voice had been saying all along.
“The family trip,” O’Connor said. “You mentioned it. The journey toward annihilation. In ‘A Good Man Is Hard to Find,’ the family doesn’t know they’re driving toward the Misfit. They think they’re going to Florida. Their ordinary, irritating, perfectly human little family trip is a procession toward violence, and the procession is what makes the violence holy. Not justified — holy. Sacred in the oldest sense. A sacrifice that no one consented to.”
“In Scotland,” I said, “the procession wouldn’t be geographic. It wouldn’t be a car on a road. It would be temporal. A day. A single day in the parish — morning to night, kirk to pub, the ordinary rounds — and the narrator walking us through it in his congregational voice, and the violence threaded through the day the way a hymn is threaded through a service. Not separate. Not hidden. Present. Part of the liturgy.”
Thompson set his glass down. The rotation stopped. “Now you’ve got something,” he said. “A man narrating one day. His day. The most ordinary day. And the reader gradually understands that ordinary, for this man, includes things that should be unspeakable, except he speaks them in the same tone he uses for everything else. He speaks murder the way he speaks weather. He speaks cruelty the way he speaks kindness. And the voice never breaks.”
“The voice never breaks,” O’Connor said. “But something in the reader does.”
The bartender had turned on a lamp. The river was dark now, the far bank invisible, just the sound of water and the occasional light from a car crossing the bridge upstream. Thompson put on his jacket. O’Connor had not taken off her cardigan, which meant she was already dressed for leaving, which meant she had been dressed for leaving since she arrived.
“One more thing,” she said. She stood up with the careful movements of someone whose body had taught her not to take standing for granted. “The moment of sight. When someone sees the narrator. Don’t stage it as a confrontation. Don’t give him an accuser. Give him a witness. Someone who has been watching, quietly, from inside the congregation, and who one day looks at him and he knows that she knows. Not because she says anything. Because the quality of her attention changes. And that change — that shift from congregational to individual — is the most violent thing in the story. More violent than whatever he’s done. Because what he’s done, the community can absorb. What she sees, it cannot.”
Thompson was at the door. He turned back. “Make her ordinary,” he said. “Not a detective, not a crusader. A woman who sits two pews behind him and has been watching him for years for the simple reason that she watches everyone. A woman whose attention is her only weapon and she doesn’t know it’s a weapon until it is.”
“And then?” I said.
“And then the congregational voice has to account for her. The narrator has to fold her into the story. He has to explain her, contain her, manage her the way he manages everything else. And whether he succeeds — whether the voice absorbs her or whether her seeing is the one thing the voice cannot hold — that’s your story.”
They left together, which surprised me. Not walking together — just leaving at the same time, through the same door, into the same dark, where the river ran past the hotel carrying whatever the Highlands had given it toward the sea, and the cold came in through the open door and sat in the chair O’Connor had vacated, and I sat with my notes and the memory of two writers who had spent their careers on opposite sides of the same wound: the wound of the person who does terrible things and believes, sincerely, that the world is better for it.