Lavender and What It Covers
A discussion between Shirley Jackson and Kazuo Ishiguro
The house where we met was not the house we would write about, but it wanted to be. A rental cottage on the elbow of Cape Cod, winterized badly, with baseboard heaters that ticked and a kitchen that smelled of the pine cleaner the previous tenant had used to cover some other smell. Jackson had claimed the chair nearest the window — the one that gave a view of the neighbor’s fence and, beyond it, a strip of grey water — and was drinking black coffee from a mug she’d brought herself. She did not trust other people’s mugs. Ishiguro sat across from her at the kitchen table, which was covered in oilcloth patterned with lemons, and he had not removed his coat.
I made tea for him and for myself, and I set out a plate of the shortbread I’d bought at the general store in town. Nobody touched it. The heater ticked. Outside, a gull screamed once and then stopped, as if it had thought better of it.
“The woman has to be happy,” Jackson said. This was before anyone had said hello. “That’s the whole game. She has to be the most contented person you’ve ever met on a page.”
I said I agreed, that I’d been thinking about a narrator who—
“Not contented like she’s fooling herself. Contented like she’s won. Like she has arranged the world exactly as she wants it and every morning is a confirmation.”
Ishiguro unwound his scarf slowly. “There’s a version of that I find very interesting and a version I find rather cheap. The cheap version is dramatic irony where the reader is ahead of the narrator and simply waits for her to catch up. A kind of puzzle box. You decode it and then it’s finished.”
“I’m not talking about a puzzle box,” Jackson said.
“No. I don’t think you are.” He folded the scarf into a precise rectangle and set it on the table next to the shortbread. “The version I find interesting is one where the narrator never catches up. Where the gap between what she’s telling you and what you understand is not a problem to be solved but a permanent condition. The reader finishes the story and the narrator is still there, still happy, still tending the garden, and the horror of it is that nothing will change.”
I said that was exactly what I wanted — the ending that isn’t an ending because the narrator doesn’t experience it as one. The last line should feel like a Tuesday.
Jackson looked at me the way she sometimes does, which is to say she looked at the wall behind my head. “You’ll have to earn that. A story where nothing changes and nothing is revealed is just a story where nothing happens. The stasis has to accumulate. Every domestic detail has to carry a little more weight than it should, and by the end the reader should feel like they’re being crushed by something that the narrator is lifting effortlessly. The teacup. The laundry. The garden. Each one is fine. All of them together, day after day — that’s the architecture.”
“Like a haunted house,” I said, “except the ghost doesn’t know she’s the ghost.”
“No.” Jackson set her coffee down. “Like a house that isn’t haunted at all. That’s the point. Haunted houses are easy. A house where everything is in perfect order and the woman keeping it is perfectly sane and perfectly content — that’s the thing that will keep you up at night. The supernatural is a crutch. It gives the reader permission to be afraid. Take it away and they have to sit with the fear on their own.”
Ishiguro cleared his throat quietly, which I had learned was his way of entering a conversation without interrupting. “I think there’s something to be said for the narrator’s relationship to language. If she’s concealing what’s happened — and I assume something has happened, something specific and terrible — then the concealment should operate not through evasion but through precision. She tells you everything. She is scrupulously honest about the bleach and the sheets and the smell. She simply does not interpret any of it the way you would.”
“The smell,” Jackson said, and smiled. It was not a warm smile. “Yes. The smell is important.”
I asked about the husband. Where was the husband in all this?
“Upstairs,” Jackson said.
“Resting,” Ishiguro added.
They looked at each other. It was the first time either of them had smiled at something the other said, and it lasted about half a second.
I said I’d been thinking about the physical details of care — the trays carried up, the meals prepared for someone who doesn’t eat them, the linens changed and bleached. The routines of devotion performed past the point where devotion has an object.
“Careful,” Ishiguro said. “That’s the thesis, and you’ve just stated it. If the story states it, even once, even obliquely, the whole thing collapses. The narrator must never have a thought like ‘devotion performed past the point where devotion has an object.’ She would think: the eggs have gone cold again, I’ll make fresh ones tomorrow. The abstraction is yours. The narrator lives in the concrete.”
He was right and I told him so.
Jackson pulled her chair closer to the table. “The outside world. That’s where the pressure comes from. The boy — there should be a boy, a neighbor, someone young and oblivious who comes to the gate because his mother sent him. He represents everything the narrator has sealed out: curiosity, interference, the possibility that someone might look at her life and call it what it is. She has to manage him. She has to be a good hostess, because that’s what she is, that’s the identity she’s built, and the good hostess cannot refuse a boy a glass of lemonade even when letting him into the house is the most dangerous thing that’s happened to her in months.”
“Why dangerous?” I asked.
“Because he might go upstairs.”
The heater ticked. Ishiguro turned his teacup a quarter turn on its saucer.
“I would not have him go upstairs,” he said. “The reader must never see what she sees. Whatever is in that room — and I think we all understand what is in that room — it should remain as the narrator describes it: a husband resting, a quilt, a window cracked for air, the flypaper. The horror is precisely that we never confirm it with our own eyes. We have only her testimony, and her testimony is meticulous and caring and absolutely unacceptable.”
Jackson shook her head. “You want to withhold too much. There has to be a moment where the surface cracks — not breaks, cracks. The boy says something. He notices something. The smell, maybe. He says there’s a smell and she explains it away, and the explanation is perfectly reasonable, the salt marsh, the organic matter, the tidal water — and the reader knows she’s lying, but the thing is, she might not be lying. The marsh does smell. The coast does rot. Every excuse she gives is also true, and that’s the knife edge.”
“I agree about the knife edge,” Ishiguro said. “But I think you’re underestimating the power of the narrator’s equanimity. If the boy mentions the smell, and she explains it, and then carries on — that serenity is more disturbing than a crack would be. A crack implies something beneath the surface that she’s suppressing. Serenity implies there’s nothing to suppress. That she has genuinely reorganized reality so that what she’s doing is simply keeping house.”
I sat with that for a moment. Both positions were strong and I wasn’t sure how to hold them at the same time. Could the surface crack and the narrator remain serene? Could the crack be visible only to the reader, while the narrator sails through it without flinching?
“That’s the question,” Jackson said, reading my hesitation. “And if you answer it before you write the story, you’ll write a dead thing. You have to not know. The narrator doesn’t know, and for the duration of writing the piece, neither do you.”
I asked about the house itself — how much architectural specificity, how much history, how it should function in the story.
“It’s her body,” Jackson said flatly. “The fence line is her skin. The locks are her reflexes. The garden is whatever she’s growing in place of the thing she’s lost. Don’t make it a metaphor. Make it a fact. She checks the fence the way you’d check a wound.”
“But the house must also be inherited,” Ishiguro said. “It should not be a house she chose. It should be a house that came to her — through marriage, through his family — and that she has made her own so thoroughly that the original owners would not recognize it. There’s something in that. The way a person can occupy a space that was never meant for them and, through sheer force of routine, make it theirs. The lace doilies his mother made. The china that was his family’s. She’s absorbed all of it. She keeps his world running long past the point where he—”
He stopped. Picked up his tea. Drank.
“Long past the point,” Jackson agreed.
I brought up the question of time — how much time has passed, whether the story should make that explicit.
“Never,” they said, almost simultaneously, and then Ishiguro gestured for Jackson to continue.
“Time should be seasonal. She talks about the roses, the frost, the warming marsh. The reader pieces together that months have passed, maybe longer. But she would never say ‘it has been seven months since.’ She doesn’t experience it as duration. She experiences it as the continuous present tense of keeping house. Monday’s tasks. Tuesday’s laundry. The rhythm is the clock, and the rhythm doesn’t stop.”
“There’s a danger,” Ishiguro said, “of making her pitiable. A poor, deluded woman. That would ruin it. She must be — formidable is too strong. Competent. Deeply, almost frighteningly competent. She manages the garden, the preserves, the fence, the household. She is not falling apart. The house is not falling apart. Everything works. That’s the grotesque element. If she were neglectful, if dishes piled up and the garden went to weeds, the reader could categorize her — grief, mental illness, denial. But a woman who keeps everything in perfect order while the thing upstairs—” He paused again. “That defies categorization. That’s something else.”
“That’s keeping house,” Jackson said.
I asked whether there should be a moment of recognition, however small. A line where the narrator almost sees herself clearly.
Jackson leaned back. “No.”
“I’m inclined to agree,” Ishiguro said, “but for different reasons. You want to deny her recognition because it makes the horror purer. I want to deny it because recognition would be a mercy, and this is not a story that should offer mercy. The most devastating thing I’ve ever written — or tried to write — is a character who arrives at the end of the story exactly where they were at the beginning, having learned nothing, because the learning would have destroyed them and the not-learning destroys them just as thoroughly but more slowly.”
“That’s not why,” Jackson said. “It’s not about mercy or devastation. It’s mechanical. The story is a closed system. She is the system. Recognition would introduce an outside perspective into a narrative that has no outside. She is the only consciousness in the story. The boy comes, the woman with the clipboard comes, but they are seen entirely through her eyes, and her eyes are the eyes of someone who has everything she needs behind a latched gate.”
“The clipboard woman,” I said. “Tell me about her.”
Jackson waved her hand. “A social worker, a county nurse, someone official. She exists to ratchet the pressure. The boy was an intrusion she could manage — lemonade, the porch, a gracious conversation. The clipboard woman is an intrusion she cannot manage with graciousness, only with locked doors. There’s a shift there. The narrator’s world is contracting. First she stopped answering the phone. Now she’s not answering the door. The circle is getting tighter.”
“And she experiences that contraction as — what?” Ishiguro asked. “Not as loss. Not as siege.”
“As housekeeping. As maintenance. The gate needs fixing. The locks need checking. She’s simply being thorough.”
I said I was worried about the ending. A story without recognition, without change, without revelation — how does it end?
Ishiguro set down his cup with a small, definitive sound. “It ends the way a day ends. She goes to bed. She describes the quilt, the room, the sound of the ocean. She is tired and content. And the reader — the reader is the one who lies awake.”
“Don’t write a last line that winks,” Jackson said. “Don’t write a last line that lets the reader feel clever for having figured it out. The last line should be the most ordinary sentence in the story. Something about the ocean, or closing her eyes, or tomorrow’s plans. The reader should finish and sit very still for a moment, not because you’ve shocked them, but because they’ve just spent twenty minutes inside a mind they cannot reach, and now they’re back in their own, and their own suddenly feels less reliable than it did before.”
I nodded. I was taking notes but also not taking notes — what they were giving me wasn’t the kind of thing that survives transcription. It was more like a temperature. The temperature of a story about a woman in a house on a spit of land between the marsh and the sea, tending roses and cooking meals for a man who will never eat them again, and finding in that tending something that the word “happiness” does not cover and the word “madness” does not cover and that exists in the space between the two where language becomes unreliable, which is to say: where fiction begins.
Jackson stood up and carried her mug to the sink. She washed it herself — the mug she’d brought — and dried it with the dish towel hanging from the oven handle.
“One more thing,” she said, not turning around. “The lavender. She should use a lot of lavender. Sachets, dried bundles, whatever. And she should tell you why — the house is old, the marsh is close, old houses have their own smell. And she should believe that’s why. And the reader should understand that the lavender is doing what lavender has always done in houses where something has happened that no one will speak about. Covering. Just covering.”
She put the mug in her bag. Ishiguro was already winding his scarf back on, slowly, precisely.
“Will you stay for more tea?” I asked.
“The tea was adequate,” Ishiguro said, which I chose to take as a compliment. He paused at the door. “The title. What will you call it?”
I said I didn’t know yet.
“Call it what she’s doing,” Jackson said from the hallway. “Keep it plain. Keep it domestic. Let the reader do the rest.”
Ishiguro nodded once. They left separately — Jackson through the front door, Ishiguro through the kitchen — and I sat at the table with the lemons on the oilcloth and the untouched shortbread and the sound of the heater ticking, and I thought about a woman checking a latch on a gate at the end of a dirt road, and the satisfaction she takes in the click of iron meeting iron, and how that sound is the sound of everything she needs staying in and everything she fears staying out, and how she does not know that these are the same thing.