On Compost, Badgers, and the Unreasonable Weight of Holding Things Together

A discussion between Terry Pratchett and Robin Hobb


The kitchen smelled of bread that was almost ready and rosemary that had been ready for some time. Pratchett had found the rosemary bush outside the back door and picked a sprig with the authority of a man who believed all herbs existed in a state of communal ownership, and it was now sitting in a jam jar on the table between us, filling the room with that sharp green smell that always makes you think of something you can’t quite place.

Hobb was sitting by the Aga with a cup of tea she hadn’t touched, watching the rain through the kitchen window. She’d been quiet since she arrived, but it was the kind of quiet that had weight to it — the quiet of someone arranging their thoughts into load-bearing structures.

I was at the table with my notebook open and nothing written in it. There was also a cat. The cat had arrived with no one and belonged to everyone and was asleep on the chair I’d intended to offer Pratchett, who had taken a different chair without comment.

“So,” Pratchett said. “A hedgewitch.”

“A hedgewitch,” I confirmed.

“And the question is what she does when the thing she’s been holding together starts to come apart.”

“Essentially, yes. She’s been maintaining a weather ward for thirty years — the whole village depends on it — and the ward is failing because the tree at its center is dying, and the bonded animal is dying with it, and she can’t fix it. She can only help what comes next.”

“Good,” Pratchett said. “Don’t tell me any more.”

I blinked. “I thought —”

“You thought we’d plan a plot. No. Plots are what happen to characters when the writer isn’t looking. Tell me about compost instead.”

I looked at Hobb, who offered no help. She was watching Pratchett the way you watch someone who might say something worth remembering.

“Compost,” I said.

“Compost. Because that’s what your hedgewitch knows about, isn’t it? Not spells and prophecies and crystal balls. She knows about soil. She knows that you can’t force a seed to grow by wanting it to very hard. You can prepare the conditions and then you can wait, and the waiting is the work, and the work is invisible, and that’s the whole business right there.”

“The dignity of invisible work,” I said, writing it down.

“Don’t write it down like a thesis statement. It’s not a thesis statement. It’s a woman on her knees in a garden. The dignity is in the knees. In the dirt under the fingernails. The moment you abstract it, you’ve lost it.”

Hobb spoke for the first time. “He’s right about the abstraction. But I’d push on something.” She turned her cup in her hands, not drinking. “You said invisible work. That’s true, but it’s not the whole truth. The work isn’t invisible because no one can see it. It’s invisible because she’s made it invisible. She’s done it so well for so long that the village has forgotten it requires doing. And that forgetting — that’s not an accident. That’s the wound.”

“Oh,” I said.

“Yes. Oh.” Hobb’s voice was steady and undecorated, the way a good foundation wall is undecorated. “Every competent caretaker I’ve ever written eventually arrives at this problem. You hold things together. You hold them together so well that the people you’re holding together for stop noticing you’re doing it. And then something breaks, and they look at you as if you broke it. Because in their minds, nothing was being held. It was just… together.”

Pratchett was nodding, but with the particular quality of a nod that means the nodder is about to complicate things. “Agreed, but the comedy is in how the village responds. Not cruelty — I don’t want cruelty. I want the specific flavor of obtuseness that comes from people who are fundamentally decent but have never had to think about where their comfort comes from. The baker whose bread won’t rise. The man whose well water tastes of pennies. They come to the village meeting and they describe the symptoms of a failing weather ward without having the faintest idea what a weather ward is or what it costs to maintain one. And our witch has to sit there and listen to them describe her life’s work as a series of inconveniences.”

“And she can’t be angry about it,” I said.

“She can absolutely be angry about it. She just can’t show it. That’s different. The anger has to go somewhere. It goes into her voice — into the way she describes things. The deadpan. The observation that sounds like a joke but is actually a scream wearing a cardigan.”

Hobb set her tea down. “This is where we’ll disagree.”

“Already?” Pratchett said. “We’ve barely started.”

“The anger is real. I don’t argue with the anger. But there’s something underneath it that matters more, and if we let the comedy handle everything, we’ll miss it. Underneath the anger is grief. She’s losing something. The tree, the badger, the bond — these aren’t just magical infrastructure. The badger has been her companion for decades. He’s the one relationship in her life that didn’t require her to perform competence. Animals don’t care if you know what you’re doing. They care if you show up.”

The rain picked up outside. The cat shifted in its sleep, and a small rumbling sound emerged that might have been purring or might have been a structural complaint about the chair.

“I’ve always written animals as the truest relationships,” Hobb continued. “Not because animals are simple. Because the bond with an animal strips away all the social performance. You can’t impress a badger. You can’t explain yourself to a badger. You can only be present with a badger, and that presence — that mutual, wordless understanding built over years — is the thing she’s about to lose, and I want the reader to feel the weight of that. Not as sentiment. As fact. The way gravity is a fact.”

“But gravity is funny,” Pratchett said. “Gravity is the funniest force in the universe. Every pratfall depends on it. Every pie in the face. Gravity is the reason comedy exists — because the human body has a natural relationship with the ground, and that relationship is undignified, and the undignified is where the truth lives.”

“The undignified is where your truth lives,” Hobb said. It wasn’t a concession. It was a boundary marker. “My truth lives in the sustained note. In the scene where nothing happens except that two beings sit together and one of them is dying and the other one knows it and neither of them looks away. You can do a great deal with comedy. But you cannot do that scene with comedy. That scene requires silence.”

Pratchett was quiet for a moment. The bread smelled closer to done.

“No,” he said finally. “You can’t do that scene with comedy. You’re right. But you can do the scenes around it with comedy, and when the reader arrives at the silence, the comedy is what makes it land. Because they’ve been laughing, and then they’re not, and the absence of laughter is louder than anything I could write on purpose.”

He looked at me. “That’s the structure, if you’re listening. The comedy is the setup. Not for a joke. For the grief.”

I was listening. I was also thinking about something else. “Can I ask about the magic? Because I keep circling the question of what it costs.”

“Good,” Hobb said. “That’s the right question.”

“In Assassin’s Apprentice — in the Farseer books — the Wit costs Fitz everything. His reputation, his relationships, his standing. Magic isn’t free. It takes something from the body, from the life. I want that here. I want the hedgewitch’s magic to have a physical cost. But it’s cozy fantasy, so the cost can’t be —”

“Can’t be what?” Hobb’s gaze was direct. “Devastating?”

“I was going to say disproportionate.”

“Those aren’t the same thing. Cozy doesn’t mean painless. It means the pain happens within a context of warmth and continuity. A death in a cozy story is still a death. It’s just a death that happens in a place where someone will wash the dishes afterward and the sun will come up and the work will continue. The domesticity doesn’t diminish the loss. It holds the loss.”

Pratchett tapped the table. “That’s Granny Weatherwax territory, you know. The witches in my — in the Discworld — their magic is work. It’s midwifing and laying out the dead and knowing when the apples will come in and when the frost will turn. It’s unglamorous. That’s the point. The glamor is a trap. The competence is the magic.”

“So the cost here,” I said, trying to find the thread, “isn’t spectacular. It’s cumulative. Thirty years of getting up before dawn to check the wards. Thirty years of soil under her fingernails. Thirty years of her body absorbing the aches of the land through this Listening — feeling the tree’s rot in her own joints, the blight as a taste in her own mouth. The cost of magic is that it makes you porous to the world’s pain.”

“And the world doesn’t thank you for being porous,” Pratchett added. “It sends you a goat that eats the minutes.”

That made me laugh. “I was thinking of putting a goat on the village council.”

“Of course you were. What’s its name?”

“Parliament.”

Pratchett gave me a look of genuine, if grudging, approval. “That’s not bad. Parliament the goat. Who votes by headbutt. Fine. You can keep that.”

“I’m honored.”

“Don’t be. I’d have named it Hansard.”

Hobb pulled the conversation back. She did this the way a current pulls — not violently, but with a steady authority that made resistance seem pointless. “The mentor. You need a mentor figure. Someone older than your hedgewitch who’s already learned the thing she hasn’t.”

“Hazel Blackthorn,” I said. “A hundred and twelve years old. Retired. Lives in a cottage that’s losing the argument with her climbing roses. She’s the one who tells Bramble the truth — that the tree is dying because it’s finishing, and you can’t cure what’s finishing, you can only help what’s beginning.”

“And Bramble doesn’t want to hear it.”

“Bramble absolutely does not want to hear it.”

“Good. Because the mentor’s job isn’t to be wise. The mentor’s job is to say the thing the protagonist already knows but hasn’t admitted. And the protagonist’s job is to resist the admission for exactly as long as it takes to make the eventual acceptance hurt.”

Pratchett made a sound that was halfway between agreement and objection. “Mentors in my experience are more like — they don’t deliver wisdom. They deliver observations. And the observations are annoying. And you spend three days being annoyed, and then you realize the observation was the wisdom, and you’re even more annoyed because you can’t go back and be gracious about it.”

“Hazel tells Bramble she’s been the mortar so long she’s forgotten she’s also a brick,” I offered.

“That’s the kind of line,” Pratchett said, “that a person hears and immediately wants to throw something at the person who said it. Which is how you know it’s true.”

“But it’s not a punchline,” Hobb said. “Don’t let it land as a punchline. It’s a mirror. Bramble looks into it and sees herself accurately, and it’s terrible. The audience can laugh — that’s fine, that’s the Pratchett side doing its work — but Bramble cannot laugh. For Bramble it has to be a wound that later becomes a key.”

There was a pause. The bread was definitely ready. Nobody moved to get it.

“I have a question about the ending,” I said. “The Passing — the ritual where the old bond dissolves and a new one begins. I know what happens mechanically. The old badger dies, the tree begins its decline, a sapling takes root, a young badger forms a new bond. But I don’t know what it feels like. What’s the emotional register? Is it hopeful? Bittersweet? Resigned?”

“All three,” Hobb said immediately. “And something else. Something that doesn’t have a clean word. It’s the feeling of — have you ever been holding something heavy for so long that when you finally set it down, you can’t tell if you’re relieved or bereft? Your arms don’t know what to do. Your body has organized itself around the weight, and without it, you’re lighter but also less. That’s what letting go feels like when the thing you’re letting go of was also the thing that gave your life its shape.”

Pratchett let out a long breath. “That’s… yes. And I’d add: she doesn’t know if it worked. The new bond is fragile. It might take. It might not. She sits on the wet grass with a young badger she doesn’t know yet, and she feels a pulse — one, two, then nothing for a long time — and she has to get up and go back to her life without knowing. Because that’s what real magic is. Real magic is planting something and walking away and trusting the ground.”

“But she doesn’t trust the ground,” I said. “She’s a hedgewitch. She knows the ground. She knows sometimes things don’t take.”

“Right. And that’s why it’s brave. Trust is easy when you don’t understand the risks. Competence makes trust harder, not easier. She knows every way this can fail. She’s choosing to hope anyway, and she’s doing it with her eyes open, and that’s the bravest thing a character can do in my experience.”

“In mine too,” Hobb said. “Though I’d say: she’s choosing to act. Hope isn’t quite the word. She’s choosing to get up and tend the sapling and build a relationship with the new badger and rebuild the wards from scratch, and she’s doing all of that without any guarantee that it will matter. That’s not hope. That’s work. Hope is what other people call it when they see you doing the work.”

“Oh,” Pratchett said. He removed his glasses and polished them, which I had come to understand was his way of buying time when someone had said something he needed to sit with. “That’s better than what I said.”

“I know,” Hobb said.

The bread burned slightly while nobody was paying attention. Pratchett got up to rescue it, wrapping a tea towel around his hand and extracting the loaf with the practiced efficiency of someone who had burned a great deal of bread in his life and considered it a forgivable sin. The bottom was dark but not ruined. He set it on a rack and looked at it with the expression of a man conducting a post-mortem.

“Salvageable,” he announced.

“Like most things,” Hobb said.

I flipped through my notebook. Pages of fragments. The jackdaw stealing ward-bottles. Bramble’s knees having opinions. The Listening as the difference between a house where someone is home and a house where no one is. The taste of sour soil on her tongue. Grisle’s memories — earthworms after rain, children’s feet on the lowest branch, autumn light in gold coins.

“One thing I’m still struggling with,” I said. “The tone. You’re both telling me different things about where the emotional center of gravity should be, and I believe both of you, which is the problem.”

“It’s not a problem,” Pratchett said. “It’s the story. The story lives in the tension between the comedy and the grief. You don’t resolve that tension. You hold it. Both things are true at once — that hedgewitching is absurd and that hedgewitching is the most important work in the world. That a goat on the village council is funny and that a woman being unseen by her community is devastating. That death is the natural end of things and that the natural end of things is unbearable. You hold both. That’s what your hedgewitch does. That’s what the story does.”

“And if I drop one side? If I let it get too funny, or too sad?”

“Then it’s a lesser story. It’s a story with one eye.”

Hobb leaned forward. “He’s right about the tension. Where I’d push is on what’s underneath it. The tension between comedy and grief — that’s the surface. Underneath is a harder question. What does it mean to give your life to work that disappears? Not work that fails. Work that succeeds so completely that no one knows it happened. That’s a different kind of loss. The loss of ever being known for what you did.”

“Bramble isn’t resentful about it,” I said. “Or she is, but she wouldn’t call it resentment.”

“No. She’d call it the job. She’d say, that’s what hedgewitching is. And she’d be right, and she’d also be lying to herself, and the story needs to hold both of those things without resolving them.”

Pratchett was cutting the bread. It steamed when the knife went through. “There’s a Discworld proverb,” he said. “I can’t remember if I wrote it or stole it. ‘A witch who is thanked for the sunrise will be blamed for the sunset.’ That’s the whole economy of invisible work in one sentence. The village doesn’t know what she does. When things go well, it’s the natural order. When things go badly, it’s her fault. And she accepts this because —”

“Because someone has to,” Hobb said.

“Because someone has to. And she’d rather it was someone competent.”

He handed me a slice of bread. It was warm and slightly charred on the bottom and it tasted like exactly what it was: bread made by someone who cared enough to make it and not enough to watch it.

“There’s your story,” Pratchett said. “A woman who cares enough to do the work and not enough to be seen doing it. Make it funny. Make it hurt. Don’t let anyone off the hook — not her, not the village, not the reader.”

“And the badger,” Hobb said. “Don’t forget the badger. The badger is the only character who sees her whole. When you write the scene where he dies — when you write those bond-memories flowing through her — that’s the emotional spine of the entire piece. Everything else hangs on whether that scene works. If the reader doesn’t grieve the badger, nothing else matters.”

“No pressure,” I said.

“Enormous pressure,” Hobb corrected. “That’s the job.”

The rain had stopped without any of us noticing. Outside, the garden was doing that thing gardens do after rain — looking scrubbed and attentive, every leaf holding its own small lens of water. The cat woke up, stretched with the absolute self-assurance of a creature who has never once wondered whether its work is appreciated, and left through a door that none of us had opened.

I had what I needed. Or rather — I had the tensions and the images and the two voices arguing in my head, and I knew from experience that having the argument was more useful than having the answer. The story would grow from the space between them: between the joke and the wound, between the comedy of a goat eating tax records and the silence of a woman pressing her face into the fur of a dying animal, between the warmth of bread and the weight of thirty years spent holding something together that the world didn’t know needed holding.

Pratchett put on his hat. “One last thing. The title.”

“Hedgewitching for Beginners.”

“Good. Because she’s not a beginner. She’s been doing this for thirty years. The irony is that the real beginning — the one that matters — comes at the end. She’s a beginner at letting go. She’s a beginner at starting over. All that competence, and the hardest thing she’ll ever do is something she’s never done before.”

He left. Hobb stayed for another cup of tea, which she again did not drink. I think she just liked holding it.