The Body Remembers What the Policy Forgot

A discussion between Naomi Alderman and Angela Carter


Alderman had suggested a walk. Carter wanted to sit. They compromised by standing in the kitchen of a rented flat in an East London neighborhood that had been subjected to three consecutive waves of regeneration — each wave promising to restore something the previous wave had demolished. The kitchen had the particular sadness of a space designed by someone who had read about cooking but never done it: a marble island with no knife marks, a spice rack filled alphabetically, copper pans hanging from a ceiling rack like an argument for domesticity that no one in the room was buying.

Carter stood at the window, smoking, which she did without apology and with a deliberateness that made it look less like a habit and more like a position. Alderman was making coffee in a French press, narrating her process to no one in particular: “Four minutes. People always rush it. The patience is where the flavor lives.”

I had my notebook open. I had written down: women’s bodies as state infrastructure and biological modification as safety measure and then, underneath, in smaller letters: what does the body remember that the person doesn’t?

“So,” Alderman said, pressing the plunger. “We’re writing about a woman whose body is being modified by the state. For her own protection. And her body starts to refuse.”

“Her body doesn’t refuse,” Carter said. “Her body does something else entirely. Refusal is still within the grammar of the system. I refuse, you insist, we negotiate. That’s a contract dispute. What I want is something that exits the grammar altogether. Something that makes the question of compliance or refusal irrelevant because the body has started speaking a language the system never anticipated.”

“Like what?” I asked.

Carter tapped ash into the sink. “Like hair. Thick hair, in places women are not supposed to have it. Not a medical side effect — or rather, yes, a medical side effect, but one that reads as regression. Atavism. The state modifies her to be safe, and what comes back is something older than safety. Something that doesn’t want to be safe.”

“That’s interesting,” Alderman said, “but I want to be careful about what we’re doing with the body horror. Because there’s a version of this story where the woman grows claws and fangs and becomes a werewolf allegory, and that’s been done, and it’s usually done badly, because the transformation becomes the point. The spectacle of the monstrous feminine. I’ve read enough thesis papers on Carrie to last several lifetimes.”

“I’m not talking about spectacle,” Carter said. “I’m talking about something much quieter. The hair on her arms gets thicker. Her sense of smell sharpens. She starts hearing frequencies she shouldn’t be able to hear. None of it is dramatic. All of it is — what’s the word — unseemly. The kind of thing a woman is supposed to manage. Wax, shave, perfume, muffle. And what makes it political is that the modification was supposed to eliminate all of that. The modification was supposed to produce a body that didn’t need managing. A clean body. A finished body.”

“A compliant body,” Alderman said.

“Yes. And what’s emerging is an uncompliant one. Not a resistant one — resistant implies conscious objection. This is deeper than consciousness. This is cellular. This is the body remembering something the modification was designed to overwrite.”

I wrote down: the body remembers. Then I crossed it out, because it sounded like a wellness poster. I tried again: the body is doing something that has no name in the vocabulary of the system, and the absence of a name is what makes it dangerous.

“I want to talk about what the modification actually does,” Alderman said. She poured coffee into three mugs she’d found in the cupboard — all branded with the logo of a company that no longer existed. “Because the premise only works if the modification is genuinely appealing. It can’t be a crude oppression. It has to be something that most women in this society want. Something that makes real problems go away.”

“Like what?”

“Like pain. Like periods. Like the vulnerability of a body that can be overpowered. What if the modification stabilizes hormone fluctuations, increases bone density, reduces pain sensitivity, regulates fertility? What if it genuinely makes women’s lives easier, and the trade-off is that the state controls the dosing schedule, and the dosing schedule is tied to compliance metrics — employment, reproduction targets, social credit, whatever the local flavor of bureaucratic control is?”

Carter crushed her cigarette against the windowsill. “You’re describing hormonal birth control.”

“I’m describing hormonal birth control scaled to a civilizational project, yes.”

“Which already exists in several countries, just without the explicit state mandate.”

“That’s what makes it work as dystopia. The gap between what we already do and what the story does should be narrow enough to make the reader’s skin prickle.”

I said, “So the protagonist — she’s been on the modification her whole life. Since adolescence. And she’s never questioned it because there’s nothing to question. It works. Her life is easier. The pain is gone.”

“And then it stops working,” Alderman said. “Not all at once. Not dramatically. Just — the body starts producing something the modification can’t suppress.”

“Not producing,” Carter said. “Remembering. I keep coming back to this word and I know it sounds soft but I mean it precisely. The body has a memory that is not cognitive. It is not stored in the hippocampus. It is stored in the follicle. In the fascia. In the way her jaw clenches when a man stands too close, which is something the modification was supposed to eliminate — that flinch, that animal alertness — and it’s coming back, and she doesn’t have a framework for it because she’s never felt it before. Or she has, but she was thirteen and the modification overwrote it before she could name it.”

Alderman was leaning against the counter, holding her coffee with both hands. She hadn’t drunk from it. “Angela, I want to push back on something. You keep using the word ‘remembering’ as though the body has an authentic state that the modification suppressed. As though there’s a real woman underneath the modified one, waiting to emerge. And I think that’s — not wrong, exactly, but dangerous. Because it’s the same logic the system uses. The system says: we will give you your real body, your best body, the body you were meant to have. And you’re saying: no, the real body is the wild one, the hairy one, the one that flinches. But both arguments assume there’s a real body. Both arguments assume authenticity.”

Carter lit another cigarette. She did this the way some people take a breath before speaking — not to stall, but to create the silence in which the next sentence could land properly.

“You’re right,” she said. “And I don’t care.”

“You don’t care?”

“I don’t care about the philosophical problem of authenticity. I’m not interested in whether the feral body is more real than the modified one. I’m interested in the fact that it is more frightening. To the woman, to the state, to the man in the next cubicle who notices that her canines look different. The question of what’s real is a question for ethicists. The question of what’s frightening is a question for storytellers.”

Alderman set down her mug. “Fair. But the story still needs the protagonist to have interiority. She has to think about what’s happening to her. She has to interpret it. And her interpretation can’t be ‘my wild self is emerging’ because that’s too clean, too liberatory. And it can’t be ‘I’m sick, I need to go back to the clinic’ because that’s too passive. So what does she think is happening?”

This is where I tried to say something useful and got it wrong. I said, “Maybe she thinks she’s becoming dangerous.”

They both looked at me. Carter with something like patience. Alderman with something like disappointment.

“Dangerous to whom?” Alderman asked.

“To — I don’t know. To herself. To the people around her.”

“That’s the state’s framework,” Alderman said. “The whole point of the modification is that unmodified women are dangerous — to themselves, to society, to the stability of the project. If she interprets her transformation as danger, she’s still thinking inside the system. She’s still using the system’s categories.”

“Then what does she think?”

“I don’t think she thinks anything, at first,” Carter said. “I think she feels. And the feeling is not danger and not liberation and not illness. The feeling is appetite. She is hungry in a way she hasn’t been since before the modification. Not for food, though also for food. Hungry for space. For sound. For the particular quality of air right before a thunderstorm. She doesn’t know what to do with this hunger because she’s never had to manage appetite before. The modification managed it for her.”

“Appetite,” Alderman repeated. “That’s better than dangerous. Yes. An unmanaged appetite in a society that has made appetite management the cornerstone of female citizenship.”

I wrote it down. I wrote down appetite and unmanaged and then I wrote what does an unmanaged woman look like in a society that has made management the price of participation?

“She would lose her job,” Alderman said. “Not immediately. But the compliance metrics would flag her. Irregular hormone profile. Missed dosing appointments. And the language they’d use — you know the language — it would be medical. Concerned. They wouldn’t fire her. They’d refer her. To wellness support. To adjustment counseling. To a nice woman in a nice office who would say, ‘We just want to make sure you’re comfortable.’”

“Comfortable,” Carter said. “God, what a word. The entire history of women’s oppression is in that word. Are you comfortable. We want you to be comfortable. This procedure will make you more comfortable. Lie back. This won’t take long. Are you comfortable now.”

“And the protagonist sits in that office,” I said, “and she can smell the counselor’s perfume and underneath the perfume she can smell the counselor’s lunch and underneath the lunch she can smell the counselor’s fear, because the counselor is afraid of her, just slightly, in a way neither of them can acknowledge.”

Carter pointed at me with her cigarette. “That. Don’t lose that. The scene where she smells the fear. That’s where the story turns. Because up until that moment she’s been the patient, the case file, the woman with the irregular profile. And in that moment she becomes something else. Not a predator — that’s too simple. But something that can perceive the predator-prey relationship that the modification was designed to erase. She can see the hierarchy again. Not the social hierarchy — the biological one. The old one. The one that existed before language.”

“I’m worried about essentialism,” Alderman said. “I keep circling back to it. If we say the body has an ‘old’ knowledge, a pre-linguistic truth, we’re one sentence away from gender essentialism. Women are naturally intuitive. Women are closer to nature. Women have a special biological wisdom. That’s the kind of thing that gets printed on tote bags and used to deny women access to rational discourse.”

“Then write against it,” Carter said. “Write the character who is terrified of what her body is doing. Write the character who does not find it beautiful or empowering. Write the character who looks at the hair on her forearms and feels revulsion, genuine revulsion, because she has been taught to feel revulsion, and the teaching was not wrong, it was just incomplete. The hair is revolting. And it is also hers. And she doesn’t know how to hold both of those at once.”

“The modification as a kind of emotional education,” Alderman said slowly. “Not just physical. The modification taught her what to feel about her own body. And now the feelings are changing along with the body, and she doesn’t have — she’s never had — the vocabulary for an unmodified emotional life.”

“Nobody does,” Carter said. “That’s the whole point. Nobody in this society has the vocabulary because the vocabulary was deprecated two generations ago. Her grandmother might have had it. Her grandmother might have known the word for the feeling you get when your body does something without your permission and it turns out to be the right thing. But her grandmother is dead, and the word died with her, and what our protagonist has is a body that is speaking and no dictionary.”

There was a long pause. Alderman drank her cold coffee. Carter stared at the window, where condensation was forming in patterns that looked almost deliberate.

“I want to say something about Gilman,” I said. “About The Yellow Wallpaper. Because that’s what keeps pulling at me. The woman in that story is confined for her own health. Her treatment is rest, passivity, the removal of all stimulation. And what emerges from that confinement is a hallucination — or a perception — of something alive inside the wallpaper. Something creeping. Something that is her and not her. And the liberation at the end, if it is liberation, is indistinguishable from madness.”

“Liberation indistinguishable from madness,” Carter said. “Or from monstrosity. Yes. That’s the lineage. Gilman understood that when you confine a woman’s body, what grows in the confinement is not patience. It’s something with teeth.”

“But Gilman’s narrator is sympathetic,” Alderman said. “The reader roots for her. Even at the end, when she’s crawling over her unconscious husband, the reader is with her. I don’t think our protagonist should be so easy to root for.”

“Why not?”

“Because the thing emerging from her is genuinely unsettling. Not metaphorically unsettling. Physically unsettling. I want the reader to sit with the discomfort of not knowing whether to cheer for her or call the authorities. Because that’s what the people in her life are feeling. Her partner, if she has one. Her colleagues. They can see something changing, and they want to be supportive, and they also want to step back, and the wanting-to-step-back is the honest response, and the being-supportive is the trained response, and neither one is wrong.”

“Her partner should be a woman,” Carter said.

“Why?”

“Because it complicates the easy reading. If her partner is a man, the story becomes about escaping male control, which is — fine, but predictable. If her partner is a woman, then the modification is not a tool of patriarchy in any simple sense. It’s a tool of the state. And the state is run by women and men both. And the partner who is frightened of what she’s becoming is not an oppressor. She’s a citizen. She’s someone who took the modification and is glad of it and cannot understand why anyone would want to go back.”

Alderman nodded. She nodded slowly, the way someone nods when they’re conceding ground they’d intended to hold. “That does make it harder. In a good way.”

“The partner is the hardest character in the story,” Carter continued. “She loves the protagonist. The love is real. And she is watching the protagonist become something she cannot recognize, and the not-recognizing is a kind of grief, and the grief is a kind of abandonment, and she is going to say something unforgivable. Something like: ‘You look like my grandmother.’ And the protagonist will hear it as an accusation. And the partner will have meant it as one.”

I started to ask about the ending and stopped myself. I remembered what happened in the last meeting when someone asked about endings. Instead I said, “What does she smell like? The protagonist. After the modification starts failing. What changes?”

Neither of them answered immediately. Carter looked at the ceiling. Alderman looked at her hands.

“Earth,” Carter said finally. “Not perfume. Not sweat. Not the clean regulated nothing that the modification produces. Earth. Like something that has been buried and isn’t anymore.”

Alderman opened her mouth. Closed it. Opened it again.

“I was going to argue with that,” she said. “But I can’t, because it’s exactly right and I’m annoyed about it.”

Carter almost smiled. Almost. “The body is a site of contested meaning. Fine. We all agree on that. But meaning starts with sensation. Before interpretation, before politics, before the long seminar on essentialism versus constructivism — before all of that, there’s a woman who wakes up and smells earth on her own skin and doesn’t know whether to shower or press her face into her own arm and breathe deep.”

“She does both,” I said. “She showers. And then, after the shower, in the steam, she lifts her arm and