The Waiting Room at the End of Everything

A discussion between Neil Gaiman and George Saunders


Gaiman was late, and Saunders was early, and this meant I spent eleven minutes alone with a man who radiated the particular kindness of someone who has trained himself to find every human being interesting. He asked about the coffee machine. He asked about the building, which was a repurposed fire station in Syracuse that still smelled faintly of diesel and rubber boots. He asked if I was nervous.

“A little,” I said.

“That’s good,” Saunders said. “Nervous means you care about the outcome. The dangerous ones are people who walk into rooms like this completely calm.”

“Are you calm?”

He considered this with more honesty than the question deserved. “I’m curious. Which is a different animal. Curiosity and anxiety are like fraternal twins. They share a room but they don’t look alike.”

Gaiman arrived carrying a paper bag and an apology about traffic that was so understated it could have been British or could have been exhaustion. He set the bag on the table between us. Inside were three tangerines.

“I passed a stand,” he said. “It seemed rude to arrive empty-handed.”

Saunders picked up a tangerine and examined it with the attention most people reserve for important documents. “Thank you, Neil.”

“You’re welcome, George.”

They had met before, I gathered, though neither specified when or where, and the warmth between them had the texture of two people who respected each other’s work enough to be slightly intimidated by the prospect of disagreement. I had been expecting fireworks. What I got, at least initially, was two men eating tangerines and talking about airports.

I steered us toward the project. A portal fantasy — a person passing between worlds — but with the twist that the other world was not a kingdom or a wilderness or a floating city. It was a waiting room. A liminal space. A place where the dead didn’t know they were dead and the living weren’t sure they were living and the furniture was institutional and the fluorescent lights hummed at a frequency that made your teeth itch.

“Ah,” Gaiman said. He set down his tangerine peel in a single unbroken spiral. “You want the Bardo.”

“Not exactly the Bardo. The Bardo is Buddhist cosmology. This is more like — the afterlife as designed by someone who peaked in middle management.”

Saunders let out a laugh that sounded like it had been surprised out of him. “Oh, I know that place. I’ve worked in that place. I temped in places worse than that place. There was a week in ‘87 when I worked for a company that manufactured — you know what, it doesn’t matter what they manufactured. The point is the break room. The break room had motivational posters that had been hung during the Carter administration and a coffee machine that produced something that was technically a liquid. And in that break room, every afternoon at three, you could look around at the faces and you could see it — every person in that room was somewhere between alive and dead and they had gotten used to it. They had accommodated it.”

“That’s the portal,” I said. “That accommodation. The moment when you stop noticing the walls.”

“But Coraline notices the walls,” Gaiman said. He had gone still in the way he does when something has snagged his attention — not dramatic, more like a cat that has heard a mouse behind the plaster. “That’s what makes Coraline work. She walks into the other world and it’s better than her real life in every visible way — the food is better, the attention is better, the mother is more attentive — and she still notices that something is wrong. The wrongness isn’t a detail you can point to. It’s in the grammar of the place. The way the other mother’s love is perfect in the way that a painting of a meal is perfect — technically flawless and you will starve to death in front of it.”

“So the portal opens into a place that feels like comfort,” I said. “A beautiful lie.”

“A beautiful lie told by a very skilled liar,” Gaiman said. “The best lies are not the ones that contradict reality. The best lies are the ones that improve on it. Slightly. Just enough. Here is a version of your life where the thing you lost is still here, where the phone call you’re dreading never comes, where the diagnosis is benign. Who wouldn’t stay?”

“Everyone would stay,” Saunders said. “That’s the problem. That’s not a story about bravery. That’s a story about how obvious it is to choose comfort when comfort is available. The question is what makes someone leave.”

“Bravery,” Gaiman said. “Being frightened and doing the thing anyway.”

“Okay, but why? In Coraline, the reason is clear — the other mother is a predator, the buttons are terrifying, the danger is legible. What if the danger isn’t legible? What if the waiting room is genuinely pleasant and the people in it are genuinely happy and the only problem is that none of it is real — but nobody can tell?”

There was a silence. The former fire station creaked in the way old buildings do, as if settling an argument with its own foundations.

“That’s where the voices come in,” I said. “The risk card. Multiple narrators.”

Gaiman leaned back. “Go on.”

“Two or three voices telling the same story, or overlapping stories, from inside the waiting room and from outside it. One voice belongs to someone who’s been in the room so long they’ve forgotten there’s an outside. One belongs to someone who’s just arrived and can still smell the diesel and the rubber boots of the real world on their clothes. And maybe a third — an administrator, a functionary, someone who runs the waiting room and believes, sincerely, that they’re providing a service.”

“The administrator is the other mother,” Gaiman said immediately. “Not literally. But structurally. The figure who shapes the lie and calls it love. Who makes the room comfortable and calls it care. Who traps you and calls it protection.”

“But here’s where I think Neil and I might diverge,” Saunders said. He had been peeling his tangerine in a methodical way — not a single spiral like Gaiman’s, but in careful sections, each peel placed beside the last. “Neil, your instinct — and it’s a brilliant instinct — is that the trap has teeth. The other mother is monstrous beneath the smile. The enchantment is evil wearing a mask. But what if it isn’t? What if the administrator of this waiting room is not a villain? What if they’re a person who has been in the room so long that they’ve come to believe the room is mercy?”

“That’s worse,” Gaiman said.

“Yes. That’s worse. Because you can fight a monster. You can’t fight someone who genuinely thinks they’re saving you.”

“You can,” Gaiman said. “It’s just that the fighting doesn’t look heroic. It looks ungrateful.”

Saunders pointed at him with a tangerine section. “That. That right there. The person who leaves the beautiful room looks ungrateful. Looks crazy. Looks like someone who can’t accept a good thing. And the voices in the room — the ones who’ve been there for years, decades, centuries — they don’t try to stop you with force. They try to stop you with disappointment. With sorrow. With the devastating gentleness of people who know you’re making a mistake.”

I was writing too fast, my handwriting degrading into something only I could decipher, and possibly not even that. “So the chorus of the dead — the Lincoln in the Bardo element — they’re not wailing spirits. They’re people sitting in molded plastic chairs under fluorescent lights, eating sandwiches from a vending machine, and they are fine. They have accepted. And acceptance, in this case, is the horror.”

“Not horror,” Saunders said, and I felt the correction like a small hand on my wrist. “Not horror. Sadness. There’s a difference. Horror asks you to flinch. Sadness asks you to stay and look. These people are not grotesque. They’re achingly ordinary. They have coffee mugs with their names on them. They have photos taped to their desks — photos of people they can no longer remember. They have rituals. They have jokes. They have friendships that are real within the reality they’ve agreed to share. The tragedy isn’t that they’re trapped. The tragedy is that they’re not unhappy.”

Gaiman was quiet for a while. He picked up a tangerine section from Saunders’s neat little pile and ate it without asking. “I think you’re underestimating how frightening that is,” he said. “Contentment as prison. Happiness as a cage that no one rattles because the bars are warm. That’s a fairy-tale horror. That’s the hill under the fairy mound where you dance for a night and a hundred years pass above you. It’s horror. It’s just horror that smiles at you.”

“We’re going to fight about this the entire time, aren’t we,” Saunders said.

“I hope so,” Gaiman said. “Fighting is how we’ll find the tone.”

“The tone is the problem,” I said, and they both looked at me, and for a moment I felt like a student who had accidentally said something useful in a seminar. “Because if I write this in Gaiman’s register — the fairy-tale matter-of-fact, the dark whimsy — the waiting room becomes sinister and enchanted. If I write it in Saunders’s register — the vernacular absurdism, the corporate empathy — it becomes funny and devastating. And I need both, but I don’t know how to hold both in the same sentence.”

“You don’t hold them in the same sentence,” Saunders said. “You hold them in different voices. That’s what the multiple narrators are for. Each narrator carries a different tonal register. The longtime resident speaks in my idiom — the bureaucratic comedy, the self-justifying monologue, the person who has talked themselves into their own prison with vocabulary that sounds like a performance review. The new arrival speaks closer to Neil’s — the fairy-tale clarity, the child in the other world who knows something is wrong because the shadows fall at the wrong angle.”

Gaiman nodded slowly. “And the administrator?”

“The administrator is the one I don’t know yet,” I admitted. “Because the administrator has to be both. Funny and sinister. Caring and predatory. A middle manager and a fairy queen.”

“A middle manager IS a fairy queen,” Gaiman said. “They offer you a bargain you can’t refuse, they set conditions you don’t understand until it’s too late, and they smile while they do it. The only difference is that the fairy queen knows she’s enchanting you. The middle manager thinks she’s helping.”

Saunders was quiet for a beat too long. Then: “My mother was an administrator.”

We waited.

“Not of a cosmic waiting room. Of a dental office. In Amarillo. And she was extraordinary at her job. She knew every patient by name, she remembered their children’s birthdays, she made a place where people went to have pain inflicted on them feel like a place where they were known. And she was — she was the administrator of her own life in the same way. She organized the grief after my father left. She filed the sadness in the correct drawer and labeled it and came to work the next day and remembered Mrs. Kowalski’s daughter had made the volleyball team. And I loved her for it and it also scared me because I could see the cost. I could see what the organizing was for. It was so she would never have to sit in the room with the thing she’d lost and just be with it.”

The fire station was very quiet.

“The administrator of the waiting room loves the residents,” Saunders said. “Genuinely. The way my mother loved her patients. And the love is real and the service is real and the room is still a prison. Those things coexist. You don’t resolve them. You just — you sit with them.”

Gaiman had taken off his glasses and was polishing them with the hem of his shirt, which is a gesture I’ve noticed writers make when they are processing something they don’t want to show on their face. “That’s the center of it,” he said. “The love that is also the trap. The administrator who is the other mother — not because she’s evil, but because love that keeps you from the truth is a kind of button-eyed motherhood. A flawless imitation of care that will starve you.”

“But you can’t frame it that way in the story,” Saunders said. “You can’t have the protagonist figure that out and announce it. The protagonist has to feel it without naming it. The gap between feeling and naming — that’s where the reader lives.”

“That’s where the voices help,” I said. “If one narrator names it and another denies it, the reader has to decide. The truth lives in the gap.”

“The truth always lives in the gap,” Gaiman said. “Stories are the technology we invented for pointing at gaps.”

I wanted to ask about the ending — whether the protagonist leaves the room or stays, whether leaving is coded as brave or merely painful, whether there’s a door or a gradual erosion or a sudden horrible clarity. But I sensed that asking would be premature, that the ending had to emerge from the tensions we hadn’t resolved. And we hadn’t resolved the biggest one.

“Are the people in the waiting room dead?” I asked.

Gaiman said, “Yes.”

Saunders said, “They don’t know.”

“Both,” I said. “They’re dead and they don’t know.”

“No,” Saunders said, and his voice had shifted into something harder. “Some of them know. That’s worse. Some of them figured it out years ago and they stayed anyway. Because the room is warm and the coffee is adequate and the alternative is — what? Wherever the dead go. Which might be worse. Which might be nothing. The bravest thing in the world might be accepting that the waiting room is a lie and the alternative is oblivion, and choosing oblivion anyway, because at least it’s honest.”

“Or the alternative might be beautiful,” Gaiman said. “That’s the fairy-tale version. Behind the terrifying door is the real world, which is cold and diminished and full of loss, and it’s also the only place where things actually happen. The waiting room is a story that never ends. The real world is a story that does.”

“And endings are what make stories matter,” I said.

“Endings are what make stories hurt,” Gaiman said. “There’s no grief in the waiting room because there’s no ending in the waiting room. You can’t lose anyone because no one ever leaves. And a world without loss is a world without weight.”

Saunders put his hands flat on the table. “I want to resist that. Not because it’s wrong. Because it’s too clean. It sounds like a thesis statement. ‘Loss gives life meaning’ — that’s a graduation speech. What I want is a character who knows that, intellectually, who could articulate it exactly the way you just did, and who still can’t make herself walk through the door. Because the room has a woman in it who looks like her daughter. Or sounds like her daughter. Or used to be her daughter, before the room made her into something that only resembles a daughter. And our character has to look at this resemblance and say, this is not my child, this is the room’s version of my child, and I am leaving. And that is not a clean moment. That is the ugliest, most lacerating thing a person can do.”

Gaiman didn’t respond immediately. He reassembled his glasses and put them back on and looked at Saunders with an expression that conceded a great deal. “You’re right. The leaving has to cost everything. It can’t be Coraline’s bravery — resolute and admirable. It has to be the kind of bravery that looks, from the outside, like cruelty. Like abandonment. Like a mother walking away from a child.”

“Even though the child isn’t real.”

“Especially because the child isn’t real. The grief is real. The child is not. And you cannot explain that distinction to the chorus of residents watching you leave. They will think you are a monster. And they might be right.”

I realized, with a falling sensation, that we had arrived at something none of us could resolve and that the story would have to live inside that irresolution. A portal fantasy where the portal leads not to adventure but to grief’s waiting room. Where the monsters are kind and the escape looks like betrayal. Where three voices argue about what is real and none of them win.

“The voices,” I said. “Can we nail down what each one sounds like?”

“The long-term resident talks like someone filling out a form about their own afterlife,” Saunders said. “Bureaucratic, self-deprecating, prone to parenthetical qualifications that reveal more than the main clause. Funny in the way that people are funny when they’ve given up on the idea that their situation will change — the humor of accommodation.”

“The new arrival — the one who can still smell the real world — talks plainly,” Gaiman said. “Short sentences. Observational. Matter-of-fact about the impossible. A child’s syntax, almost. ‘The walls were the wrong color. The woman behind the desk had too many teeth.’ Not literary. Not ornate. The clarity of someone who hasn’t yet learned to look away.”

“And they contradict each other,” I said. “The resident describes the room as warm and welcoming. The new arrival describes the same room as slightly off, slightly wrong, the proportions not quite right.”

“The truth is both,” Saunders said. “The room is warm because the resident’s perception has been shaped by years of accommodation. The room is wrong because the new arrival’s perception hasn’t been shaped yet. Neither is lying. Both are accurate from inside their own nervous systems.”

“The administrator,” Gaiman said. “You still haven’t decided.”

“The administrator speaks in third person,” I said, and I didn’t know where this came from. “Not ‘I’ — ‘the Attendant’ or some title. As if they’ve become their function so completely that the first person no longer applies.”

Gaiman smiled. It was the first real smile of the conversation. “That’s the other mother’s voice. The voice of something that has worn personhood as a costume for so long that it can’t find the zipper.”

“Or the voice of a person who has given themselves over to a role,” Saunders said. “Which is sadder, and more human, and I think where we should aim. Not inhuman. Post-human. Someone who started as a person and became an office.”

We sat with that for a while. The tangerine peels were browning at the edges. Outside, someone was testing a car alarm in the parking lot in an irregular rhythm that sounded, if you were in the right state of mind, almost deliberate.

“I’m not going to resolve the question of whether the administrator is monstrous or tragic,” I said. “Because I don’t think the story can afford to know.”

“No,” Gaiman agreed. “Let the voices argue it. Let the reader decide.”

Saunders gathered his tangerine peels into a small pile. “One thing I want to be careful about. The humor. There has to be humor in the waiting room, because people in terrible situations are funny. They make jokes. They name the water stain on the ceiling. They rank the vending machine sandwiches. But the humor can’t be a coating. It can’t be a way of making the sadness palatable. It has to be the sadness, viewed from a different angle.”

“Gallows humor,” Gaiman said.

“No. Gallows humor knows it’s doomed. This is break-room humor. Break-room humor doesn’t know it’s doomed. Break-room humor thinks this is just Tuesday.”

There was a noise from the parking lot — the car alarm again, three sharp yelps and then silence. Saunders looked toward the window. Gaiman looked at his hands. I looked at the space between them and thought about a story in which the funniest character is the one who has been dead the longest and the bravest character is the one who walks away from everything that looks like love.

“I’m terrified of this story,” I said.

“Good,” they both said, simultaneously, and then looked at each other with the mild surprise of two writers who had just agreed without meaning to.

Nobody ate the last tangerine. It sat on the table between us, bright and ordinary and impermanent, and when I left the fire station an hour later I took it with me and ate it in the parking lot and it was the best thing I had tasted in weeks, and I couldn’t tell you why.