The Procedural and the Confessional

A discussion between Henning Mankell and Kazuo Ishiguro


We met in Lund, which was Mankell’s suggestion, though I suspected the suggestion was partly strategic — neutral ground, but still Swedish ground, still his landscape. The café was on a side street off Stortorget, the kind of place with wooden chairs that scraped against the floor when you moved them and a counter displaying pastries that had been there since morning. It was mid-afternoon, late November, and the light outside was that particular Scandinavian grey that isn’t darkness exactly but the absence of any conviction that the day ever properly started.

Ishiguro arrived first. He was sitting at a table near the window when I came in, a cup of tea in front of him, his coat still on. He had the look of someone who hadn’t decided whether to stay. When I sat down across from him, he said, “The waiter was very kind about the tea,” which I later understood was his way of saying the tea was poor.

Mankell arrived twelve minutes late and didn’t apologize. He ordered coffee, black, and sat in the remaining chair with the directness of a man who has spent decades entering rooms where something terrible has happened and knows that hesitation at the threshold is wasted energy.

“I want to talk about time,” I said, because I’d been turning the constraint over since the assignment. “Non-linear time. The story can’t move in a straight line. It has to fracture.”

Mankell looked at me over his coffee. “In an investigation, time is never linear. You receive a phone call at four in the morning. An old woman is dead. You drive to the scene. You see the body. Then you spend the next six months going backward — not forward, backward. Every interview, every piece of evidence, every forensic report takes you further into the past. The investigation moves in one direction while time moves in the other. There’s nothing experimental about that. It’s how the work actually functions.”

“That’s a different thing than what the constraint asks for,” I said. “The investigation naturally moves backward, yes. But the narrative still unfolds forward — the detective learns more as the reader learns more. What I’m being asked to do is break the reader’s experience of sequence. Show them the third day of the investigation, then the fifteenth, then the first.”

“Why?” Mankell said. It wasn’t hostile. It was the question of someone who had spent a career making procedural linearity serve moral and political purposes and wanted to know what was gained by abandoning it.

I didn’t have an answer yet. I looked at Ishiguro.

He had been holding his tea without drinking it, which I was learning was his way of being present without committing. “The question isn’t why you break the sequence,” he said. “The question is what the sequence was concealing. In a linear narrative, causation is the organizing principle — this happened, therefore that happened. It feels truthful because it feels logical. But most lives aren’t organized by causation. They’re organized by return. You go back to the same moments — the same conversation, the same decision, the same room — and each time you go back, you understand something different. Or you fail to understand. The sequence was hiding the fact that you’ve been circling the same point for years.”

Mankell set down his cup. “You’re describing memory.”

“I’m describing how people avoid guilt,” Ishiguro said, and for the first time there was something sharp in his voice, an edge that cut through the quiet courtesy. “A man who has done something he cannot face doesn’t move through time in a straight line. He moves in loops. He revisits the decision — not to reconsider it, but to confirm that it was correct. And each time he revisits it, he adjusts the details slightly. The weather was different. The phrasing was different. He had less information than he actually had. The loops aren’t about understanding. They’re about maintenance. He’s maintaining a version of events that allows him to continue functioning.”

Something shifted in the room. Mankell was listening differently now — not as a procedural writer being asked to abandon procedure, but as someone recognizing a mechanism he’d observed in his own characters without naming it this way.

“Wallander does this,” he said quietly.

“Yes.”

“Not deliberately. But after certain cases — the ones that damage him — he doesn’t move on. He returns to them in his mind. He thinks he’s reviewing the evidence. He thinks he’s being thorough. But actually he’s rehearsing a version of events in which he could not have acted differently.”

“Stevens does the same thing,” Ishiguro said. “In my novel. He doesn’t revisit Darlington Hall because he wants to understand what happened there. He revisits it to confirm that his service was correct, that his loyalty was justified. Each return is a small act of self-preservation. And each return makes the truth a little harder to reach.”

I said, “So the non-linear structure isn’t a formal trick. It’s the shape of denial.”

“It’s the shape of a specific kind of denial,” Ishiguro corrected. “The denial of someone who did their job correctly and the job itself was wrong. That’s the crucial distinction. Stevens didn’t betray anyone. He served faithfully. He performed his duties with extraordinary competence. And that competence was in service of something monstrous. The non-linear return to the past is his attempt to separate the two — to keep the competence and discard the complicity.”

“In policing,” Mankell said, leaning back, “this happens at the institutional level, not just the personal. A detective follows procedure. The procedure is correct. The interviews are conducted, the evidence is logged, the reports are filed. And the procedure produces a result that is technically defensible and morally catastrophic. A man is convicted. The conviction holds. Years pass. But the detective knows — not consciously, not in any way he could articulate — that the procedure served something other than justice. That it was efficient rather than true.”

“And he can’t say that,” I said.

“He can’t say it because he has no language for it. The only language he has is the procedural language. The forms, the timestamps, the chain of evidence. If the procedure was followed, the outcome was correct. That’s the logic. And the logic is unbreakable from inside.”

“So the non-linear time is how it breaks,” I said. “From outside. The reader sees the same events from different points in the sequence and recognizes what the detective cannot recognize from within the linear progression of the case.”

Mankell was quiet for a moment. Then: “You need a specific case. A specific crime. Not a metaphor for institutional failure — a real crime with a real victim and a real investigation that followed real procedure and arrived at a real result that the detective is spending years circling back to.”

“A death,” I said. “At a residential care facility. An elderly immigrant.”

“Where?”

“Skåne. Somewhere rural. Small town, farming community.”

“Not Ystad,” Mankell said. “I’ve used Ystad. And it’s become too — too known. People read Ystad and they think of Wallander. Pick a town that has no associations.”

“Kävlinge,” I offered. “Or somewhere near it. South of Lund, north of Malmö. Agricultural. The sugar beet fields.”

Mankell nodded. “Good. Flat country. The kind of landscape where you can see someone approaching from a long way off, which means you can also see them not approaching. The emptiness is not neutral.”

“The detective,” Ishiguro said. “Tell me about the detective.”

I’d been thinking about this. “A woman. Late fifties. Good record. Not brilliant — Wallander-brilliant, the intuitive leaps — but solid. Reliable. The kind of detective who follows procedure because she genuinely believes in it. Who has built her career on the conviction that if you do the work correctly, the work produces justice.”

“And the conviction is tested,” Ishiguro said.

“Destroyed,” I said. “Slowly. Over years. She investigates this death — an elderly Bosnian man at a care facility. The investigation is correct. The procedure is followed. A verdict is reached. But she keeps returning to it. Not officially. In her mind. The way you described — maintaining the version of events.”

“What’s she maintaining?” Mankell asked.

“That she didn’t see something she saw. Or that what she saw didn’t mean what it meant.”

Ishiguro leaned forward. It was the most physically engaged he’d been since arriving. “Don’t make the thing she’s hiding from too large. Not a cover-up. Not corruption. Something smaller. A moment of judgment — the kind of moment that doesn’t appear in any report because it’s not a decision, it’s an instinct. She walked into a room and formed an impression. The impression guided everything that followed. And the impression was wrong. Or the impression was right but she chose the wrong action. The non-linear structure should keep returning to that moment, and each time we return, we see it slightly differently — not because the facts change, but because the context around it changes.”

“Stevens at the conference in 1936,” Mankell said. “He serves the port while the men discuss appeasement. Each time he tells the story, the port is the same. His service is the same. But the appeasement shifts. The meaning of serving the port shifts.”

Ishiguro looked at Mankell with something I couldn’t quite read. Surprise, maybe, that his own work had been understood that precisely by someone whose literary method was so different.

“Yes,” Ishiguro said. “Exactly like that.”

Mankell said, “But the crime must be real. Not a vehicle for the detective’s psychology. A Bosnian man dies in a care facility in rural Sweden. That is a political act, whether or not anyone intends it. The care facility exists because Sweden promised something to refugees in the 1990s. The quality of that facility — the staffing, the funding, the attention — reflects what the promise actually meant versus what it was said to mean. If the death is neglect, the neglect is political. If the death is violence, the violence is political. Don’t let the psychological structure swallow the social one.”

“I’m not sure they’re separable,” I said. “The detective’s inability to see clearly is itself political. She can’t see the neglect because seeing it would require her to indict the institution she serves. Her personal denial and the institutional denial are the same denial.”

“That’s the story,” Mankell said. He said it the way he might note that the weather had changed — factual, unadorned. “That’s the thing the non-linear structure is for. To show that personal denial and institutional denial have the same shape.”

I wanted to agree, but something nagged at me. “Ishiguro-san, you said the thing she’s hiding from should be small. A moment. An impression. If Mankell is right that the story is about the identity of personal and institutional denial, then the moment needs to do both — be private and systemic at the same time.”

Ishiguro didn’t answer immediately. He picked up his tea, found it cold, set it down again. “There’s a scene I keep imagining,” he said. “The detective enters the room where the old man died. She sees the room. The condition of the room — the mattress, the window, the table beside the bed. She takes in the room the way a detective takes in a crime scene: cataloguing, assessing, noting. And in that moment, she makes a judgment. Not about the crime. About the life. About what it means that this man spent his final years in this room. And the judgment is correct — the room is terrible, the care is inadequate, the promise made to this man twenty years ago has been broken. But she does nothing with the judgment. She files it away. She proceeds with the investigation as though the room were merely a location and not an indictment. The non-linear structure keeps bringing us back to that room. And each time we return, the room is the same, but we see more of what was in it.”

The café had grown darker around us. The afternoon light, such as it was, had withdrawn. The pastries on the counter looked ancient. At the next table, a student was reading something on a laptop with headphones in, oblivious.

Mankell stood up, not abruptly but with the decisiveness of a man who had somewhere else to be or wanted to give that impression. “One more thing,” he said. “The Swedish landscape. In winter, the light lasts four or five hours. The darkness isn’t hostile — it’s patient. It waits. And it reveals nothing. You can stand in a field in Skåne in December and see the lights of a farmhouse a kilometer away and know absolutely nothing about what’s happening inside. The landscape is procedural. It gives you data — distance, temperature, visibility — but no interpretation. Use that.”

He put on his coat. At the door, he turned back. “Don’t let her understand what she did. Not fully. The understanding should be the reader’s, not the character’s. She gets close. She almost sees it. And then the procedure takes over again and the moment passes.”

He left. The door closed behind him with a small click.

Ishiguro and I sat in the silence he’d left behind. After a moment, Ishiguro said, “He’s right that she shouldn’t fully understand. But he’s wrong about why. It’s not because understanding would be too neat. It’s because understanding is not available to people who have organized their entire lives around not understanding. The structure of her mind won’t permit it. She will approach the truth and the approach itself will trigger the defenses that prevent arrival. That’s not a failure of character. It’s the architecture of a life spent in service.”

I said, “That’s devastating.”

“Yes,” Ishiguro said. “I know.” He looked out the window at the street, where the lampposts had come on though it wasn’t yet four o’clock. “Make the winters different. Each time the story returns to a winter, make the cold specific. Not ‘it was cold.’ Which cold. The cold of early November, when you still believe your coat is sufficient. The cold of January, when you’ve stopped believing anything will be warm again. The cold of March, when the thaw begins and everything that was frozen starts to surface. The body was found in March, perhaps. When the ground softens.”

He didn’t say anything else for a while. Neither did I. The student at the next table closed the laptop and left. The waiter came and cleared the cups.

“The title,” Ishiguro said, as though continuing a sentence he’d started minutes ago. “Don’t call it something with ‘cold’ or ‘dark’ or ‘winter.’ Those have been used. Call it something that contains time. Something that tells the reader, before they’ve read a word, that this story moves the way memory moves — in returns, not in progress.”

I told him I would. He picked up his bag and put his coat on properly for the first time since arriving, buttoning it carefully, as though the act of leaving required more formality than the act of being present.

At the door he paused, not turning back. “The room,” he said. “Keep going back to the room.”

Then the door closed, and the café was quiet, and outside the November dark had settled over Lund with the patience Mankell had described — revealing nothing, waiting for nothing, simply present.