What the Grand Jury Never Heard

A discussion between James Ellroy and Megan Abbott


Ellroy wanted a government building. Not a specific government building — any government building, he said, because they all smell the same. Disinfectant and paper and the particular human odor of people who have waited too long in chairs that were not designed for waiting. He was right about this. The conference room we ended up in was on the fourth floor of a county administrative annex in a suburb of Jacksonville — a room with no windows and a table scarred by three decades of depositions. The fluorescent light had a quarter-second delay, a micro-flicker that you stopped noticing until you’d been in the room for an hour and realized your left eye was twitching.

Ellroy sat at the head of the table. He did not ask to sit at the head of the table. He simply sat there, and the geometry of the room rearranged itself around him. He had a legal pad. Yellow. He had three pens — two black, one red — lined up parallel to the pad’s edge with the precision of surgical instruments. He had a manila folder that he’d brought himself, contents unknown, and he set it on the table face-down like a card he intended to play later.

Abbott sat to his left. She had a glass of water that she’d filled from the hallway fountain. No bag, no notebook. She sat with her hands in her lap and her posture suggested a woman who had spent a lot of time in rooms where the furniture communicated that her presence was provisional.

I sat across from Abbott. I had my laptop open, which was already wrong — too modern, too clean for this room. I closed it.

“Tell me about the documents,” Ellroy said. He said it the way a man says tell me about the body. Not a request. An instruction to begin.

“A sixty-count indictment,” I said. “Written by a female prosecutor in a state attorney’s office. The defendant is a man who’d been operating for at least a decade — trafficking underage girls, running them through motels along the interstate corridor. She built the case over fourteen months. Witness interviews. Financial records. Phone logs. Medical records from emergency rooms where girls showed up with injuries that the intake nurses coded as falls.”

“How many girls?”

“The indictment names thirty-one. The actual number is higher.”

Ellroy wrote something on his pad. Fast. The pen moved like a seismograph needle. “And the state attorney. Her boss. He’s the one who kills it.”

“He doesn’t kill it. That’s what makes it worse. He presents it to the grand jury, but he presents it wrong. On purpose. He brings in the girls — some of them, the ones who’ll testify — and he lets the defense characterize them. He uses the word prostitutes in his own questions. He declines to introduce the financial evidence that shows the defendant’s network. He puts a fourteen-month case in front of twenty-three citizens and makes it look like the state has nothing.”

“So the grand jury no-bills.”

“The grand jury no-bills.”

Ellroy stopped writing. He looked at me with an expression I couldn’t parse — not anger, not excitement, something more chemical than that. A reaction at the molecular level. “This is a story about paper,” he said. “You understand that. This isn’t a story about a predator. It’s a story about what was in the filing cabinet.”

“I think it’s a story about the woman who wrote what was in the filing cabinet,” I said.

“No.” The word was flat. Definitive. A period at the end of itself. “It’s about the paper. The woman is the vehicle. She wrote the indictment. She compiled the evidence. She is the instrument through which the documents were assembled, and the documents are the architecture of the case. Sixty counts. Each count is a sentence. Each sentence is an accusation that the state of Florida chose not to speak aloud. The story is the distance between what was written and what was said in that grand jury room.”

Abbott spoke. She’d been listening with the stillness of someone reserving judgment, and when she spoke it was without raising her voice, which made it land harder. “The story is about the woman.”

Ellroy turned to her. The movement was sharp, a bird registering motion.

“The story is about the woman because the documents don’t exist without her body in that office for fourteen months. She sat across from those girls. She looked at their arms. She asked them to describe things that most people spend their lives building walls around, and she wrote it down in language that a court would accept, which means she translated screaming into syntax. That’s not an instrument. That’s a person who is being used up. And the moment her boss walks into that grand jury room and calls those girls prostitutes, he isn’t just burying the case. He’s burying her. He’s saying: the fourteen months you spent with these girls, the thing it cost you to sit with them, that means nothing. Your work product is my work product, and I will do with it what the situation requires.”

Ellroy was quiet for three seconds. I counted them. Three seconds of Ellroy not talking is a geological event.

“Fine,” he said. “The woman. But the woman as a function of the office. She exists inside the institutional apparatus. She has a title. She has a bar number. She has a desk with a nameplate and a computer with a state-issued password and every morning she badges in through a security checkpoint that logs the time to the second. The system knows where she is at all times. The system tracked her for fourteen months while she built a case that the system had already decided would fail. You want to write about what it costs her — fine. But the cost is legible in the paperwork. It’s in the time stamps. Fourteen months of badge-ins at 6:47 AM and badge-outs at 11:15 PM. It’s in the email chains where she requests resources and gets silence. It’s in the drafts folder where versions two through nine of the indictment show her cutting language because someone above her said it was too aggressive.”

“Too aggressive,” Abbott repeated. She said it without inflection, letting the phrase sit in the room and do its own work.

“Too aggressive is always the phrase,” Ellroy said. “Institutional code for: you are a woman who is angry about the right things in the wrong way.”

I leaned forward. “So how do we structure this? The gap between the indictment and the grand jury presentation — that’s the story’s engine. But the question is point of view. Do we see it through her eyes as it’s happening? Or is this after the fact — her looking back?”

“After,” Ellroy said instantly. “She’s telling it. Reconstruction. She sits down — it doesn’t matter where, at a desk, in a car, on a bench outside the courthouse — and she reconstructs what happened by going through the documents. The structure of the story is the structure of the case file. She turns pages. Each page is a layer. Financial records. Witness statements. Phone logs. The forensic analysis of a motel room that tested positive for blood in seven locations. And as she turns pages, you see two stories happening simultaneously: the case she built and the case her boss dismantled.”

“A palimpsest,” I said.

“Don’t use that word,” Ellroy said. “A palimpsest is a thing academics say when they want to feel architectural. What this is — is a woman reading her own autopsy. She’s looking at the corpse of her case and trying to identify the cause of death, and the cause of death is the man who signs her paychecks.”

Abbott shook her head. Not disagreement. Adjustment. “The palimpsest idea isn’t wrong, though. The problem is the metaphor, not the structure. Two texts occupying the same space — that’s exactly what a sabotaged grand jury presentation is. The original indictment is there, underneath, and the state attorney’s version is written over it. Every question he asks in that grand jury room is a revision of something she wrote. He’s editing her in real time, in front of twenty-three people who don’t know the original draft exists.”

“They don’t know her,” I said. “The grand jurors. They never see her.”

“That’s the thing,” Abbott said. “She’s in the building. She’s probably in the hallway outside the grand jury room, waiting. She drafted every word of the original indictment and she is not permitted in the room where it’s being discussed. That’s not a procedural detail. That’s the story’s central image. A woman standing in a hallway while a man she works for walks into a room with her language and uses it to do the opposite of what it was built to do.”

I felt something happen in my chest — a tightening, the physical registration of an idea arriving. “She can hear it. Through the wall. Not clearly, not every word. But she can hear the tone. She can hear when her boss’s voice drops into the register he uses when he’s being collegial with the jury. And she can hear when a girl is testifying because the voice goes higher, thinner, younger. She’s standing in that hallway listening to the muffled sound of her case being killed.”

Ellroy wrote something on his pad. Three words. He underlined them twice.

“The girls,” he said. “You need to decide how the girls appear in this story. In the indictment, they are case numbers. In the woman’s memory, they are faces across a table. In the grand jury room, they are — what? What does the state attorney turn them into?”

“Accomplices,” Abbott said. “That’s the move. He doesn’t deny that they were harmed. He reframes the harm as participation. They were present. They accepted money. Some of them returned to the defendant’s operation after law enforcement contact. In the language of the grand jury presentation, they are not victims. They are co-conspirators who lack the standing to bring charges because their hands are dirty too.”

“And the woman in the hallway hears this.”

“She hears the shape of it. She hears her boss ask a sixteen-year-old whether she was paid for her time, and she knows what that question is doing because she spent fourteen months learning what those girls actually experienced, and payment was not the word for it. Payment implies a transaction. A transaction implies consent. Consent implies agency. The logic is a chain and every link is a lie, and her boss built it from the materials she gave him.”

Ellroy put down his pen. He sat back. The chair creaked in a way that suggested the chair had opinions about load-bearing. “The documents,” he said again. “I keep coming back to the documents. Because the documents are the only honest things in this story. The girls’ testimony was honest in the room where the woman took it, and it was dishonest in the room where the state attorney presented it, but the documents — the phone logs, the financial records, the motel receipts — those don’t change depending on who’s reading them. A phone log is a phone log. A receipt from a Days Inn on I-95 dated November 14th for a room paid in cash — that receipt means the same thing in the indictment and in the grand jury presentation. The state attorney can reframe testimony. He can’t reframe a receipt.”

“But he can decline to introduce it,” I said.

“Yes. And that’s a different kind of violence. Not revision. Omission. The receipts exist. They are in the filing cabinet. They are in the woman’s case file. They are real and they are legible and they prove what they prove, and the state attorney simply does not mention them. Twenty-three citizens make a decision based on incomplete evidence, and the evidence that was excluded is sitting in a drawer four floors below them.”

Abbott was looking at the table. Tracing something with her finger — a circle, slowly, the way you trace something when you’re thinking about a body in a room. “I want to know about the girls after. Not after the grand jury. After the woman. After the fourteen months of interviews and evidence collection and the careful, patient, institutional attention of a person who believed the system would work. Because here’s what happens to those girls: a woman from the government sat with them. Asked them to trust her. Asked them to say things they had never said aloud to anyone. And then the government — the same government, the same building, the same seal on the wall — said: actually, no. We looked at what you told us and we decided it wasn’t enough. Or we decided you were the wrong kind of victim. Or we decided that the man who did this to you is more important than the fact that he did it.”

She looked up. “That’s what the system does to young women. It solicits their pain and then it reclassifies it. And the woman who solicited it — the prosecutor — she’s complicit in that reclassification whether she wants to be or not. She was the state’s instrument. She gathered the material. And the state used it to build a case for doing nothing.”

The room was quiet. The fluorescent light flickered. I could hear someone in the hallway rolling a cart with a bad wheel.

“She quits,” Ellroy said.

I looked at him.

“After. She quits the office. She doesn’t quit immediately — it takes months. She keeps badging in at 6:47. She keeps working other cases. But the indictment is in her drawer, and she knows it’s there the way you know a loaded gun is in a drawer. One morning she badges out at 9:12 AM and doesn’t come back.”

“Does she take the documents?” I asked.

Ellroy smiled. It was the first time he’d smiled and it was not a comforting expression. It was the smile of a man who has spent decades in the archives of institutional failure and recognizes a good detail when it arrives.

“That,” he said, “is the question the story needs to answer.”

Abbott leaned forward. “No. The question the story needs to answer is whether taking the documents changes anything. She has sixty counts of evidence that the state of Florida declined to prosecute. She can take it to the press. She can take it to the feds. She can post it online. And none of those options undo what happened in the grand jury room. None of them un-call those girls prostitutes. The damage is done and the documents are proof of the damage and also proof that proof was never the problem.”

“Proof was never the problem,” I repeated.

“It’s the thing people outside the system don’t understand. They think the system fails because it lacks evidence. It doesn’t. It fails because the people who run the system decide what the evidence means, and they decide before the evidence arrives. The indictment was dead the day her boss read it and understood what prosecuting this man would cost him politically. Everything after that — the fourteen months, the interviews, the grand jury presentation — was theater. And she was the only person in the building who didn’t know she was in a play.”

“She knew,” Ellroy said. “Somewhere. She knew.”

“Maybe. But she built the case anyway. And that’s the part I can’t—”

Abbott stopped. She picked up her glass of water. Put it down without drinking. Picked it up again.

“That’s the part you can’t what?” I asked.

“That’s the part I can’t decide whether to admire or resent. She built a sixty-count indictment inside a system she had reason to suspect would destroy it. Is that integrity or is that the particular delusion of women who believe that excellence will protect them? That if the work is good enough, the work will be respected? Because that belief — that the quality of the work matters — is the thing the system exploits most efficiently. It keeps her in the building. It keeps her at her desk until eleven PM. It keeps her across the table from traumatized girls asking them to trust a process that has already decided they are disposable.”

Ellroy tapped his pen on the pad. A rhythm. Staccato. The sound of a man whose brain processes information percussively.

“You’re both right and you’re both wrong and I’m not interested in resolving it,” he said. “The story has to hold both. The documents matter because they are the material record of what happened. The woman matters because she is the human cost of the institutional betrayal. The girls matter because they are the ground-level casualties that the system was designed to produce. And the state attorney—”

“The state attorney is the system,” Abbott said.

“The state attorney is a man,” Ellroy said. “A man with a name and a face and a mortgage and a car in the parking garage on the third level, space 47, and he drives a Lexus because state attorneys in Florida drive Lexuses, and he made a decision. People always want to say the system did this. The system didn’t do anything. A man walked into a room and asked a sixteen-year-old girl whether she was paid for her time. A man. With a mouth. Making a choice.”

The fluorescent light flickered again. Somewhere in the building a phone was ringing and no one was answering it.

“I want to write this,” I said. “I think I know how to write this.”

Neither of them said anything. Which was, I understood, not agreement.