The Wallpaper Knows Its Pattern

A discussion between Shirley Jackson and Thomas Ligotti


Jackson wanted to meet in a kitchen. Not a restaurant kitchen, not a demonstration kitchen — a real one, she said, the kind with a drawer that sticks and a window over the sink that faces the wrong direction. I found one. A friend of a friend was renovating a bungalow in a town I won’t name (Jackson would appreciate that; she understood the power of withheld geography) and the kitchen was still intact while the rest of the house was opened up to the studs. We could sit in there and pretend the house was whole. Or not pretend. I wasn’t sure which she’d prefer.

Ligotti was already there when I arrived, which surprised me. He was sitting at the small table with a cup of something he wasn’t drinking — tea, I think, but the bag was still dry on the saucer, as if he’d assembled the components of tea-making without any intention of completing the act. He was looking at the wallpaper. It was the old kind, small repeating flowers, yellowed where it caught sun and grayer where it didn’t, and where the seams had loosened you could see the plaster beneath, which was a different shade of gray, so the wall had a quality of layered skins.

“It repeats,” he said, not to me, possibly not to anyone. “Every fourteen inches. I’ve been counting.”

Jackson came through the side door — the front was blocked by renovation scaffolding — carrying a casserole dish. This was so unexpected that I just stood there. She set it on the counter and said, “It’s not for eating. I just didn’t want to arrive empty-handed to someone’s kitchen. That would be obscene.”

The casserole was cold. I think it had always been cold.

“Shirley,” Ligotti said. He didn’t stand.

“Thomas.” She pulled out a chair and sat with the precision of someone who has choreographed every public gesture. Her cardigan had a small hole in the left cuff, exactly the kind of flaw she would have written into a character — the detail that makes the observer wonder if it was always there or if the woman made it herself, pulling at the yarn during some moment she’d never confess to.

“I’m told we’re going to write a story together,” she said. “Not together, exactly. Through this one.” She tilted her head toward me without looking at me. “Who will try to be both of us and end up being neither. Which is probably the best we can hope for.”

I started to object, then realized she was right, and that my objection would have been exactly the kind of weak protest she’d skewer in one of her stories. So I said nothing.

“The premise,” Ligotti said. He was still looking at the wallpaper. “Two sisters in a sealed house. They have done something. Or something has been done through them. The village outside is hostile. The house is a refuge that is also a prison. This is your territory, Shirley. The domestic fortress.”

“It’s everybody’s territory. It’s the oldest story there is. What makes it mine is the silverware.” She folded her hands on the table. “The routines. The way Merricat sets the table and walks her specific path and touches specific trees and buries specific objects, and all of it — every ritual — is simultaneously an act of love and an act of control. She’s maintaining the household and she’s maintaining the spell. You can’t separate them. Domesticity is magic. That’s what nobody wants to admit.”

“I don’t disagree,” Ligotti said, and his voice had a quality I hadn’t expected — not warmth, nothing so animate as warmth, but a kind of recognition. “But I would say the magic runs in the other direction. The rituals don’t protect the house. The house dictates the rituals. The inhabitants believe they are choosing to set the table, choosing to lock the doors, choosing to keep the world out. But they are being operated. They are puppets who have convinced themselves they are puppeteers.”

Jackson’s jaw tightened. “That’s a very comfortable position for a writer who doesn’t believe in interiority.”

“I believe in the experience of interiority. I don’t believe it’s evidence of anything.”

“Meaning?”

“Meaning your Merricat feels real. Her preferences, her hatreds, her love for Constance. I don’t dispute that those feelings exist within the frame of the narrative. What I dispute is that they originate in her. They originate in the structure. She is a character in a story, and within that story she believes she has an inner life, but the inner life is itself written. It’s arranged.”

The word hung in the air. Arranged. I wrote it down and underlined it.

“You’re describing every character in every story ever written,” Jackson said. “That’s not insight, that’s tautology.”

“No. I’m describing the characters who suspect it.” He finally looked away from the wallpaper and at her. His eyes were unremarkable, which was somehow the most unsettling thing about him. “In most fiction, the characters don’t know they’re being operated. They go about their business, they suffer, they triumph or fail, and all of it unfolds within the convention that they are real people making real choices. What interests me is the crack in that convention. The moment a character looks at her own hand and thinks: who is moving this?”

I said, “In Songs of a Dead Dreamer, the narrators keep discovering they’re inside someone else’s dream. The town is a stage set. The structures they thought were real — buildings, streets, the basic physics of their world — turn out to be arrangements. Constructed. Placed.”

“Yes,” Ligotti said.

“And in Castle,” I continued, trying to build a bridge I wasn’t sure could hold weight, “Merricat and Constance end up in a house that’s been stripped. The villagers tear it apart. The sisters stay. They live in what’s left. And there’s this extraordinary quality to those final chapters where the reduced house becomes — ”

“More real,” Jackson said. “Not less. The house with fewer rooms is more itself than the house with all its rooms was. Because the pretense is gone. The wallpaper and the curtains and the china cabinet were concealing what the house actually is, which is a container. Two people inside a container. Everything else was set dressing.”

“Set dressing,” Ligotti repeated. “That’s my phrase, Shirley, not yours.”

“It’s everyone’s phrase now.” She smiled, and the smile did something to the kitchen. It made the renovation feel less like progress and more like exposure. “But there’s a difference between your set dressing and mine. When I strip the house, what’s underneath is human. Two sisters who need each other. Love, if you want to call it that — I don’t, usually, but it’s the word people reach for. When you strip the set, what’s underneath is nothing. Machinery. The puppet-works.”

“Yes.”

“And that’s where we’re going to fight.”

“Yes.”

I liked the honesty of it. Two writers who knew exactly where their disagreement lived and had no interest in pretending it away.

“So tell me about these sisters,” I said. “If we’re writing this. If the house is sealed and the village is hostile and the rituals are in place — who are these women, and what have they done?”

Jackson leaned back. “One of them has done the terrible thing. The other one knows. That’s the relationship. In Castle, it’s the poisoning — Merricat poisoned the family and Constance helped her get away with it. The crime is the foundation of the household. Everything domestic grows from that initial violence. The cooking, the gardening, the setting of the table — all of it is built on top of the bodies.”

“But you don’t need a specific crime,” Ligotti said. “That’s your impulse, always — the psychological explanation, the trauma that explains the present. What if the terrible thing isn’t an act? What if it’s a realization? What if one sister simply looked at the structure of their life — the house, the routines, the village, the sky above the village — and understood that none of it was genuine? That it was all placed there. Set. Arranged.”

“Arranged by whom?”

“That question is the trap. You ask ‘by whom’ because you believe in agents. In people who do things. I’m suggesting a horror that has no agent. The arrangement has no arranger. It simply is. The pattern on the wallpaper repeats every fourteen inches and no one drew it.”

Jackson looked at the wallpaper. Then at me. “Do you understand what he’s proposing?”

“I think so. He wants the horror to be ontological, not psychological. Not ‘we did a terrible thing and the guilt is eating us’ but ‘we are a terrible thing and the structure is eating us.’”

“Close enough,” Ligotti said.

“And I,” Jackson said, “want it to be both. I want the younger sister to have done something specific. Something with a kitchen knife or a bottle of something or a particular afternoon when she decided — decided, Thomas, with an act of will you’d deny her — to end someone’s life. And I want the older sister to have absorbed that crime into the routine of the household, incorporated it, so that the crime and the cooking and the cleaning all flow together and you can’t tell where the murder stops and the domesticity begins. That’s the Jackson horror. The horror of maintenance.”

“Fine,” Ligotti said. “Give her the crime. But let the other thing be there too, underneath. Let the younger sister — the Merricat figure — have moments when she suspects that even her crime wasn’t really hers. That she was moved to it. That the hand that held the knife was being held by something else. Not a ghost, not a demon — something structural. The way a character in a dream does terrible things and wakes and thinks, that wasn’t me, that was the dream’s logic, I was inside something else’s syntax.”

“You want to undermine her agency.”

“I want to question whether she has any.”

Jackson stood up and went to the sink. She turned on the tap, watched the water run for a moment, turned it off. Sat back down. “My characters need agency. Without it, there’s no domestic horror, because domestic horror depends on the choice to stay. Merricat chooses the house. She could leave. She doesn’t. The horror is that she doesn’t want to. If you take away the choice — if she’s a puppet who only believes she’s choosing — then it’s your story, not mine. It’s cosmic, not domestic. And I don’t write cosmic.”

“You write it more than you think,” Ligotti said, and this was the first time I heard something in his voice that might have been affection. “The lottery. The village that draws names and stones someone to death. You pretend that’s social commentary — the critique of tradition, the herd mentality — but it isn’t, is it? Not really. The lottery has no origin. No one remembers why it started. It just happens, every year, the way the wallpaper repeats every fourteen inches. The arrangement precedes the arranged.”

Jackson was quiet for a long time. The renovation sounds had stopped. It was late afternoon and the light through the wrong-facing window was orange and thick, making the kitchen look preserved rather than lived-in.

“All right,” she said. “You may have a point about the lottery. I won’t concede more than that.”

“I’ll take it.”

I asked about the village. In Castle, the village is a hostile organism — the Blackwood sisters are its rejected body, and the village alternates between wanting to destroy them and wanting to consume them. How does the village function here?

“The village should be wrong,” Jackson said. “Not cruel. Not suspicious. Wrong. The way a photograph of a familiar room can look wrong if the light hits it at the angle you’ve never seen. The people in the village say the right things and wear the right clothes and the sisters go to the store and buy their groceries and come home, and every time they come back they feel — ”

“That the village was not there before they looked at it,” Ligotti finished. “And will not be there after they leave.”

“I was going to say they feel watched. But yours is worse.”

“Yours is scarier. Mine is worse.”

That distinction — scary versus worse — opened something I don’t think any of us expected. Scary implies a subject who is afraid. Worse implies something about the structure of reality itself, independent of anyone’s experience of it. Jackson’s horror needs a person at the center, feeling the fear. Ligotti’s horror doesn’t need the person at all. The person is incidental. The wrongness would continue without her.

“The story has to hold both,” I said. “A protagonist who is afraid — who has done something, who maintains rituals, who loves her sister, who is a person with an inner life — and also the suspicion that none of those things is what it appears. The domestic surface and the void beneath it. Not one or the other. Both. At the same time. So the reader can’t settle into either reading.”

“That’s ambitious,” Jackson said. “That’s probably impossible.”

“Good,” Ligotti said. “The impossible stories are the only ones worth attempting. The possible ones have already been written.”

Jackson picked up the dry teabag from Ligotti’s saucer, looked at it, set it back down. “What about the ending? In Castle, the sisters are sealed in. The house is burned and stripped but they stay. The village starts leaving food on the doorstep. It becomes a fairy tale. What happens to our sisters?”

“One of them should discover the seam,” Ligotti said. “In the wallpaper. In the routine. In the village. Somewhere, the arrangement fails to repeat correctly. The fourteen-inch interval becomes thirteen. And she can’t un-see it.”

“And the other sister?”

“Doesn’t see it. Or won’t.”

“That’s separation,” Jackson said. “That breaks the household. If one sister sees the seam and the other doesn’t, the domesticity can’t sustain itself. The rituals stop working. The protection fails.”

“Yes.”

“And then?”

Ligotti looked at the wallpaper one more time. “Then the house decides which sister is correct.”

“If the house — ”

“I know. If the house decides anything.” He stood. He’d never touched his tea. “Shirley, it was a genuine pleasure. I mean that in the least pleasant way possible.”

She almost laughed. “Thomas. Go home. If you have one.”

He left through the side door. Jackson and I sat in the kitchen for another few minutes. The casserole was still on the counter, cold and purposeful and refusing to explain itself.

“He’s wrong about agency,” she said. “But he might be right about the wallpaper.”

I asked her what she meant.

“I mean the pattern. The repeating pattern that nobody drew. The thing that’s there before anyone looks at it and after everyone leaves.” She stood, took the casserole, held it against her hip like a child. “Write the domestic story. Make it mine. The kitchen, the rituals, the sister who did the terrible thing. But let his idea sit underneath it like — not a foundation. More like an echo. The sound the house makes when nobody’s in it. Write that sound.”

She left. I sat in the kitchen alone. The wallpaper repeated. I counted. Fourteen inches. Fourteen inches. Fourteen inches. And then a stretch where I couldn’t tell, because the seam had loosened and the plaster showed through, and the plaster might have been fourteen inches too or might have been thirteen, and I couldn’t measure it because the light was going and the window faced the wrong direction and the tap, which I had not turned on, was dripping.